|
Welcome to the COE Discussion Forum!
|
|
|
|
To participate in the discussion forum, you must be logged in to the website. If you forget your login information, please contact COE Headquarters at coe@coe.org or (800) 263-2255.
If you are new to the COE Discussion Forum and would like to participate, please register.
|
|
|
The COE 2008 Fall Industry Workshops
|
| Experience two days of industry-focused education and hands-on training on the Dassault PLM solutions suite of products. All education featured at the workshop is developed by and for users of CATIA®, ENOVIA®, DELMIA® and SIMULIA®. |
| |
|
|
Automotive
Oct. 15-16
Troy, Michigan
|
Aerospace & Defense
Oct. 27-28
Wichita, Kansas
|
 |
|
| Forum Highlight: CATIA V6 |
|
|
 |
|
 |
| You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
COE-FORUM-USER
 |
| 29 Mar 2005 04:16 PM |
|
| How will this forum differ from the V5 Automation forum? |
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 30 Mar 2005 05:21 AM |
|
I believe that there was not a specific area for discussing Knowledgeware (KWA,KWE,PKT,BKT,etc..) before, the other area ("CATIA V5 Programming) is focused in programming (VB,CAA) issues.
If we open the discussion concerning the difference between KBE and Automation we will enter the domains of philosophy  , but still, that is a good point to be discussed.
|
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 30 Mar 2005 11:58 AM |
|
I am the COE/DPC CoChair for Knowledge-based Engineering. The week of March 20th, I attended the COE 2005 Conference in Pheonix, AZ. I met there a number of CATIA V5 Users. I have seen and used KBE for a long time. I was users/developers for Heide/Intent, KTI/ICAD and UG/Knowledge Fusion products in the past. Now, I am a user for CATIA V5 KW tools for the last 3 years.
However, for many of us in CATIA V5 and the PLM community at large, KBE is fairly new but it is an emerging technology.
Many of us are struggling "what's the best way of using the KnowledgeWare Tools." As Joao Paulo R. Lirani from Embrarer mentioned there are 5 CATIA V5 workbenches that fall in KBE areana. (KWA, KWE, PKT, PEO and BKT). Besides, there is a growing list of general tools: Formulas, Parameters, Equations, Rules, PowerCopy, Tables and Publications in V5.
Collectively, they offer a formidable solution for capturing product anmd process knowledge on a fly (without extensive CAA or VBA programming), yet they (KBE tools) offer a greater flexibility and creativity power in handling the knowledge re-usability and portability across various points during a typical product development process. Of course, KBE provides Automation like CAA and VBs do. However, it (KBE) does all that in a manner, which makes the KBE code/template/model not only visible and transparent to the users but makes it (KBE rules, Tables, and links) portable across various V5 releases as well.
Since, KBE is a powerful method of making V5 Parts and assemblies generic and reusable, many are attempting to use it. In KBE, there are many ways of doing the "same" thing (meaning capturing IPs). Some KBE techniques/methods are better than others.
In KBE, often you are trying to capture the "INTENT" or the "DEFINITION" of the part/model. Meaning, "what you would like to do with the model eventually? Why are you making your model KBE-enabled? What possible variations you like to see in the model. What to morph this model into? etc. etc. Not knowing "which KBE techniques are better than others" and "what makes a model generic (morphable)" make our KBE developers' life difficult -- when using various KBE tools.
One of the purposes of setting this forum is to provide our KBE users-- a neutral platform to discuss & ask questions, submit modeling tips, KBE hints, and suggest KBE-enabled solutions.
Since, KBE is still growing, there are many unanswered questions. I hope we could be able to generate a lot of interests and interactions with your fellow colleagues on this forum and with our V5-user community at large.
Thanks,
Brian Prasad
Parker Aerospace
KBE & Lean Leader
COE/KBE DPC CoChair -- 2005
|
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 31 Mar 2005 01:31 PM |
|
I think that maybe JP hit it on the head. This is a "Knowledgeware" Forum - a place to discuss various techniques and best practices for using the KWE, KWA workbenches.
So if I may start the semantic, philosophical discussion of whether or not this is Knowledge Based Engineering...Brian you seem to use the term KBE interchangeably with KWE and KWA which to me are just some workbenches that DS has created to assist in making "Smart" models. If you use Knowledgeware tools to "Capture" engineering design intent, you will only be aware of that design intent if you are using CATIA V5. Is this really what a company needs? Of course you can make the same argument that "Capturing" knowledge in VB or any other compiled application is just as limited. I think the challenge facing the Knowledge Based Engineer is how to capture and store Intellectual Property so that it is available and usable across many platforms and applications without burying it inside a model or a script.
I asked the original question in this thread because I figured most people would mistake a KBE forum for a VB forum (which already exists). Instead, it appears that we are going to have a Knowledgeware forum that is mistaken for a KBE forum...I don't know which is worse ...Too bad I wasn't at COE this time...it would have been more fun to argue about philosophy in person.
Let the rebuttals fly,
Nate |
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 31 Mar 2005 02:09 PM |
|
I would be pleased if we could discuss not only Knowledgeware issues but also KBE concepts in this forum.
I share the same concerns as Nate does : how close is Knowledgeware to KBE and far from pure parametric modelling ? That is a point we could also discuss here.
I do not know what theoretical basis (or foundations) Knowledgeware is built upon, but I feel there is a lack of "theoretical background" (books, papers, articles) in this subject.
Do you recommend any material to understand Knowledgeware fundamentals (philosophy) better ?
|
|
|
|
|
JSTRAWN
|
| 31 Mar 2005 03:00 PM |
|
I understand where you are coming from in wanting your Knowledge Capture in a non-proprietary system, and if you live in a corporate environment where you use multiple CAD systems, it may be imperitive.
In our case, however, we have a single Graphics System. We also have little or no previous experience with KBE. This makes Dassault's proprietary system and applications a no-brainer for us.
In either case, however, many of the techniques and processes should be very similar. Thus, we should all be able to learn from each other, whether you are using ICAD, KWA & KWE, LISP, or whatever. I look forward to participating actively in this forum! |
|
Jim Strawn
Cessna Aircraft Co. |
|
|
CRAIG HELM
|
| 31 Mar 2005 04:54 PM |
|
I think this forum should/will be used to discuss 2 important, and distinct things, although most of the focus will probably be on the latter.
1) The process of KBE - How to capture design intent, how to go about implementing it in your organization, how to change your processes to uses this, or more effectively use this, etc. . .
2) The Knowledgeware toolset in Catia - This is worlds different than programming in vba or C++. Until now, there was no real place to talk about knowledgeware.
The programming forum is bad b/c Knowledgeware is obviously not programming. An argument could be made that is is a very high level programming (a la Mathcad and Maple) with some scripting interface, but the actual programming is few and far between. You can't use the Catia V5 thread as your questions are diluted among all the other miscellaneous questions about V5, and knowledgeware is a heavy duty topic that requires its own and specific attention.
It will definitely be interesting to watch this thread progress. I am looking forward to seeing some knowledgeware questions and answers. |
|
-craig helm
Catia V5 R16 | Windows XP SP2 | Intel P4 3.4GHz | 2GB RAM | ATI FireGL V3100 128 MB DDR |
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 31 Mar 2005 06:06 PM |
|
Well said Craig...I look forward to continued discussion as well...
|
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 01 Apr 2005 04:52 AM |
|
Hi everyone,
This forum is very promising. I share almost the same doubts as you all.
Knowledge is, these days, the main wealth of a company so that we need to
capture it,
protect it,
share it
reuse-it,
I'm with you on that battle.
I would like to start with a technical question concerning to V5 knowledgeware,
Have some of you been using BPKT (Business Process Knowledge template) at all ?
Cheers |
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 01 Apr 2005 06:37 PM |
|
Cheers:
I think you guys are right on track. I agree with you all, we do not want to focus only on KnowledgeWare tools but also on the underlying KBE concepts and methods.
Very well said by Craig Helm and JP too in this thread!!
Let me now answer acmoura's question
Have some of you been using BPKT (Business Process Knowledge template) at all ?
Yes I tried using the BKT workbench on a trial basis. I did not find it very attractive for the kind of things I was doing. May be since I was very familiar with rest of the CATIA V5 KW workbenches (namely KWA, KWE and PKT), I may not have liked it. Second, the license cost is also very steep.
Frankly, I could get more mileage out of those (KWA, KWE and PKT) than BKT.
This is my own opinion.
Hope this helps
|
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 04 Apr 2005 08:02 AM |
|
This Category has a lot of potential. It will be fun to watch it unfold.
I would like to add two more possible themes that we could look at (1 and 2 were defined earlier - C. Helm 3/31). As well, I need to make an addition to the earlier definition of 1.
1) KBE, design capture, etc. must go far beyond 'intent' as the whole variety of scientific and engineering knowledge that is applied must be founded upon a quasi-empirical basis. This basis as it exists today may not be as 'solid' (pun) as we think.
3) Representation, Function, Quality - operationally, in terms of Knowledgeware, we can discuss the application of Product Function Definition and Product Function Optimization (TRIZ). From a more general aspect, see related Newsnet article (http://www.coe.org/newsnet/june03/implementation.cfm#1).
4) PLM + as Complex Systems - without KBE, CAX can be thought of as fairly controllable/deterministic (though, this is an illusion in my opinion [reference article in 3)]); however once we get KBE added in to the mix, then a myriad of problems raise their heads. One of these is that we cannot easily control systems after some point (to be defined) - it's essentially an issue of 'undecidability' (to be discussed further) which can be offhandedly ignored as a problem with measurement (CAX's stance). There are other problems. It is wonderful that the mix coming with Dassault's latest collection brings all this to fore.
The v5 mix, in my opinion, is a means to address and manage the types of problems associated with 3 and 4. The note by JPLirani (3/31) asked about the theoretical basis for Knowledgeware. I took this to be a query about the basis for KBE, too. My opinion is that we can use v5 to establish a better basis than has been possible before, at least in an operational sense, for the types of systems represented by PLM+KBE.
KBE is not ‘automation’ solely. There will always be some ‘people’ aspect in the mixture, though some situations can (and will) diminish human involvement. The more interesting challenges (and these cannot be managed away!) will by necessity involve people (with all sorts of adeptness) interacting in incredibly complicated ways with smart systems.
In terms of ‘managing away’, of course, we have the ‘business’ limits that stress accountability. Yet, there will be a need to handle the complex with rewards going to those who can handle the difficulties successfully (note that there is a strong suggestion here that wishing away these problems will not obtain the success).
|
|
|
|
|
COE-FORUM-USER
|
| 06 Apr 2005 07:12 AM |
|
I share the same opinion as you Prasad,
Concerning to BPKT, currently There's nothing I need that couldn't be done with VB.
Unless I ignore some features, at the moment, for us, it's not feasible to acquire this product.
I would like to know what DS plans for the future of Knowledgeware, specially in the context of
what jmswtlk said.
Maybe I could have had this answer at the recent COE in Arizona but unfortunately we could
not go.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
JMSWTLK
|
| 21 Aug 2005 08:05 PM |
|
This is a little belated, for which I apologize.
In the COE NewsNet for June 2005, Brian Prasad published an article titled "What Distinguishes KBE From Automation" in which he describes KBE and how it differs from Automation.
I will suggest that the FAQ include a pointer to Brian's great explanative article which ought to be the reference for many future discussions.
|
|
john.m.switlik@ieee.org
316-204-0758
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JMSwtlk |
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
|
|
|