Great venture Dave, I am all for it. Good work.

With best regards,

S. Zacharia

N/C Programmer

sibi.zacharia@usa.gknaerospace.com

1. Lets wait 2 weeks for more power users. I have been in contact with some people, that have stated intent to join, and are in the process of setting up Coe login account.

Also, everyone is busy. So not everyone will check the forum every day.

Mark TenEyck, Area Manager, Channel Sales West will contact you. Also Krishna Chilukuri, of Delmia. They are telling me that having a Dassault developer on our group is a done deal.

Philipe, (not met yet) of DS, communicates directly with Patrick Touron. Once Philipe, logs on to this thread, and states the intentions, More people will join. How many people have stated that if only DS is listening. Conformation of that, will draw more people

On large model/cgr management issues, I think it is better hardware, IE 64 bit and 8 -16 gig ram, plus proper training. I struggled with this until Cliff Johnson, emailed me the spec on saving the product, and using the product, not the CGR. When I met with Patrick Touron, and Patrick Merlat an COE Delmia in Detroit, They explained that the Product created with the CGR, is a exact geometric model of the result of the machined part. This is also used in a new panning and shop doc package. Once I used the catproduct, not the CGR, all the crashing problems stopped. I got 64bit computers with 16 gig ram for everybody.

As I said, Patrick Touron, and Patrick Merlat stated they they were "motivated" to assist me.These are decent people, that do care about our issues. Cummunication is difficult, but not impossible.  Krishna, told me that they asked how my evaluation of Delmia was proceeding, last week.  Mark TenEyck, and Krishna may have better access to , Patrick Touron. We may want to consider adding them to driving position. 4 head may be better than two. 

If it is possible for you to share your top 80 list with our group, that will save the trouble of each individual recreating the list. That is the idea of the group to save redundant work

and to save time typing the same crap. This took 1/2 hour two write. I can call on the phone in a conference in 5 min.

We need a name for our group

I like "12 angry men", but that might not go over to well

Whay say you?

Dave

we need ncprogrammer to join this group.
Who is this guy?

Hi Dave
Thanks for bringing it together

Dave,

I am very intersted in participating in the drive to have MFG enhanced. I am now at Notthoff and working to have them purchase a seat of MFG but am running into a wall until it is a more robust package. They are hard core NCL house and at this time V5 MFG cannot touch NCL in tool control or the ability to write complex macros.

John Gates

Welcome aboard John !!!!!

For Those who don't know John, He  taught the 1st NCL class I attended, back in ........1986. Also knows UG

the ability to write complex macros is on MY list .

 It may even bring a tear to Rogers eye 

I spent days doing a motion (tlaxis thru line) to remove a blob of matl, with a 90 deg head.  That one macro could have done.

This is an old question, but it is relevent to what I am trying to to

June 24 2006 I asked:why not have a VIP section ER's & bugs DS moderates?

I post this to show the attitude of some of the users. Again, I think coe is doing a great job

I just think the pace of ER's is to slow, and so do others.

 I want to purchace Delmia.

    But many enhancements are needed. If they don't get addressed soon, I will need to buy more Vericut machine simulation. The integration of Delmia, with the post is beautiful. I believe that real productivity will come from making code, verifying it, and than simulating it, as you are doing it. I am a power user of Vericut, and can easily save IP files, and search to areas I want to see, but the Delmia solution is much simpler. And it is now. If there are collisions, there is a list. you fix it and it is removed from the list. You keep going until there are no error on the list. That Applies for machine collisions. I want that functionality for gouges also. And what about minimum Excess? Vericut CGC has a one button solution 

CL replay over Video, NC review,  gouge detection report, holders, and other things, the software needs to be enhanced. I will provide details.

I see the light with Delmia. That is why I went to the COE Delmia show.The potential is incredible.

I think DS may not be aware of how we feel. Catia is AMAZING,  BUT...... 

This reminds me of Vericut’s Vue 3 years ago. Everybody who was anybody in LA was there. I asked the group “who has Optipath and who is having success with it?” 70% of the group had it, only two companies were using it. That kinda freaked out the CGTech guys there. They asked the group why people schucked out 10 grand, and let the software sit. Some of the answers were: Well its complicated, takes time to learn, owners have no patience or are looking for immediate gratification. I have No time to play, etc.

At least CGTech did something about it. The put together a special training class, expanded the regular training, and made changes to the software to ease the ramp up.

Here is excerps from, why not have a VIP section ER's & bugs DS moderates?

http://www.coe.org/Collaboration/DiscussionForum/ActiveDiscussions/tabid/210/forumid/10/postid/103617/view/topic/Default.aspx

VIP’s would have access to the database

this would be for
…. enhancement request
..….problem reports
…. Beta releases

Ds could setup it own prerequisites

like be a known user,
X years COE
x many years using product
x seats
x good ideas / submitted
whatever

Participate or not participate, that is the question

Many users do not participate in Beta releases; submit ER’s & PR. because of time constraints.

those that do, do not like using time recreating/documenting/testing known bugs. If you have trusted beta testers, they should have access to a known bug list.

What is the point of hiding your dirty laundry before you fix it when you put release notes on your web site /or software after you fix it.

here is the thread that got me going
http://archive.coe.org/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=5939

Neville askes these questions

Doesnt eveyone think that there should already be a forum for the submission of enhancement requests.
Why do we need to be COE members in order to do this?
I for one could put forward a plethora of enhancement requests.

Jim says

The problem with airing these bugs (and even enhancement requests) in public is that these forums are monitored by Dassault's competition. Discussions in these forums have been used out of context by this competition in both marketing campaigns as well as in direct, head to head competitions. Because of this, DS tolerates this forum, but doesn't really encourage it.

that is why I think VIP with DS given password solve this
they get better product to sell faster, more in tune with actual customers.
We get better software to use, less headache.

I can pick up the phone, and talk to my venter of Vericut, NCL, Pworks, Icam post.
I can submit Ideas and get feedback on what they are doing.

the only gripe, is when I hear " yeah, we know about it"

I feel totaly in the dark with Catia, as far as what they are working on fixing.

thoughts anyone?

*********** Xavier KLEIN says *********

I  agree with this statement,

DS policy is not very open to "basic" user.
The big company can request a few things , for the others , to open a PMR is most of the time a watse of time .
.
When I speak about a few bugs with my favorit VAR , he reply "yes we know about this, we already told this to DS , but we do not get any reply ......"
The only thing I expect is to have a good CATIA Code, to awoid to loose my time with bug .
.
If competitor use this forum to get information about weakness of CATIA
Why DS do not use it to fix them ?

I also agree, having had direct access to some companies R&D and support people in the past, I find the DS system slow and frustrating when you do need help in a hurry. The wonderful people at CATIA Assist in IBM are very helpful though, and their tech support website allows you to search the APAR database. The URL is https://www-304.ibm.com/jct03004c/software/applications/plm/support/support.wss

You need a support contract to raise PMR's / request assistance though. I am lucky in that respect - I would be totally lost without the ability to do a quick search myself, and then get IBM to do a thorough search of their system for any known issues. (By the way, I am not convinced that the online "free" APAR search tool at the above web address gives you all the results - I have a feeling that it holds back on the more sensitive stuff)

What you suggest is along the lines of the open source ethos - share freely, and reap the feedback. It would take a seismic shift in the DS mindset to go this way, even if they did password protect it.

I'll happily sign any petition you would like to start though....

It would also help DS keep "bad" things, like jim stated, out of this forum. If you have a group of beta testers, and/or trusted people with direct access to a bug site, it would definitely help relieve the frustration of all here on the forum, not just the VIP's for the site. It would be a lot nicer for people not on the VIP list to be able to vent something too, one of the VIP's could do a quick search, and maybe even test it themselves and submit. Of course we want to be careful not to turn the VIP's into bug researchers, but a bug here and there wouldn't hurt anyone I think. The downside is this. DS has a lot of customers, so most problems that you encounter are probably listed somewhere in an insanely huge database. You may just add another group of people to the "I don't know" or the "We already submitted it" chain. My final answer regis is that it is a good idea to try out. It can't hurt anything, but could be a huge advantage for the users and DS.

-craig helm

Actually, any licensed CATIA user can submit PMRs. Only those with Enhanced Support can monitor those PMRs via the web, and can recieve telephone contact. Also, only those with Enhanced Support can raise PMRs to CRITSIT and as for Hot Fixes. Otherwise, you will have to wait for the next Service Pack or Release. Note: Enhanced Service is well worth the cost in our experience.

Jim Strawn Cessna Aircraft Co.

As for user suppport, we have our own internal support group (and I don't believe that any of the other mentioned companies can touch them). We have an Enhanced Support Contract with IBM for PMR support, and "level 3" support questions. Most of our contacts with IBM are in the PMR arena, but we do occasionally contact them for tech questions. IBM's response is pretty good - they usually respond within a couple of hours. If it has to go beyond Level 1 on to DS, however, the repsonse time isn't very good.

Jim Strawn Cessna Aircraft Co.

Xavier, that is the whole point of COE. It is an organization where we can all gang up on DS an present a united front. DS listens to the DPCs (some of the time, anyway), and you will find that most of the attendees at a DPC Session are from the smaller companies.

Join COE. Attend the National Conference. Attend the DPC sessions.

Dave says, only a handfull can do Attend the National Conference. Attend the DPC sessions that.           

Jim, I think the point is there should be an easier way and you shouldn't need COE to do it. We can call Unigraphics support anytime about enhancements and can get our suggestions implemented. Now I'm sure there were other phone calls or e-mails from other sources, but the point is that a small design group with limited resources has an avenue to enhance the software without committees, paid memberships, etc. UG support is more practical and flexible and understands which suggestions will be good for the goose AND the gander without a lot of bureaucracy. They seem lighter on their feet and get back to us quickly with a response in both support and enhancements. Not so with CATIA support even with an IBM contract. You pretty much have to be a mega company to get anything fixed or enhanced. We don't even bother with the process anymore and hope the mega companies get the bugs fixed for us and suggest the enhancements we need.

Gary Saunders

COE definitely is a nice way to tell DS that things are needed, and it is a great place to talk about enhancement requests and be able to find a viable long term solution for a problem for all parties involved instead of a band-aidish type of solution. This is the biggest advantage of COE in this respect. Now, not being nimble presents its own problems to DS. Look at MS. They have millions and millions of dollars just sitting in a "bank account" somewhere. This goes against what most all business gurus today say b/c money needs to be leveraged, etc, etc, but this is one of the reasons Bill Gates has been such a success. You look back at his entire career, and he was able to move and jump before others even realized there was a fire. Unfortunately now, MS is getting bloated, but they still do a good job of listening to customers. Anyone can sign up for beta tests, and a myriad of different things. It works great for them. People get to give their input if they want to, and MS has free tech support essentially. They are taking a wise course of action in implementing some of the reasons that open source is so popular. Why do I say all of this? DS can choose to listen to everyone, or just big companies, and that is fine with me. Time will be the judge of the company. It may be 50 years down the line, but they will go out of business if they behave this way b/c companies that listen to their customers are doing what the customers want. UG, or someone else we have never heard of will be gradually build a product that is better than catia, or at least close to as good as catia with real support and customer interaction. DS is lucky though in the fact that they mostly deal with large companies that are slow to react and tend to be stuck in their ways. These large companies dictate to their suppliers and small companies that they must use DS products. So, DS knows that the little guys have little choice to change, and the big guys are too slow and "dumb" to change, so they are golden. Don't get me wrong, I love catia, and it is the best package out there now by FAR. But, they need to be told what they are doing wrong. I want to know what I am doing wrong in my business, and I am always open to suggestions, but that is just me. I would like to be using catia v13 here in 50 years, but at the rate they are going, I will be using NewName V2.

-craig helm

Gentlemen,

Jim Strawn's comments about COE participation and the organization are right on.
I am the NC DPC chairman and also work on the IBM technical support team for all CATIA NC products. Thanks for the kudos Jim.

My philosophy as DPC chair is: if you have issues lets hear em! Dont get hung up on the whole big company vs. small company thing. Everyone has an equal voice in the DPC. We encourage user participation above anything else. It is a unique opportunity to speak directly to DS development managers one on one. Get involved! Contact us any time throughout the year.

COE is a year round activity. My cochair Jim Barkelew and I have scheduled a conference call with DS development to review and update status of NC enhancement requests at the end of August. As mentioned in previous posts, the DPC is challenged by the once a year conference schedule. In Atlanta, DS and the DPC agreed to review enhancement status at least once or twice inbetween conferences.

The enhancement request process for the NC DPC has been productive for us for many years. The DPC has a number of techniques to record and track enhancement requests. Every conference we poll the members and present DS with a "Top Ten" list of enhancement requests. This allows DS to better focus on the key issues. We also set the Agenda for the DPC sessions. Please take a look at the Word file I have included in this post. There is a lot more detail in it on what makes the NC DPC successful. The same article appeared in the May COE NewsNet.

As manufacturing guys we like to blow our on horn a bit and like to brag that the Manufacturing PIC and DPC are a very tightly knit group. We have a "synergy" between us that we feel is unique to the COE organization.

Contact me directly and we can discuss these topics in more depth.

Mark Chitjian

***********************************************

I agree with Jim S. and Mark C. totally........

The Manufacturing DPC even gave out HATS to all attending the breakout sesions in Atlanta !!

I've attended 4 COE's and I have personally witnessed the grou getting 'tighter'

I like that 1st lunch that we all sit at the tables together and share each others pains...... Ha !

Manufacturing..........somebody has to actually MAKE all this stuff everybody is designing you know !!

Biggest SINGLE thing I've seen in Catia , is that the areas of expertise are widespead.

It's tough to get a 'guru' that can help you and your company with the 'whole package' that you need.

There's so much to learn on system hardware, software, file management, file archetecture, best practices, knowledgeware, process catalogs, machining processes, VB scripting, Post processors, Vericut, Delmia simulation, Enovia, and of course all the acronyms, PLM, VPM, LCA, DMU, CAA, VB AGHHHHH !!!!
Oh , and then we're all going to 64 bit soon........more headaches!! (But hopefully will sove many of them too )

If you find a good trainer in your company.......keep it quiet or you'll lose him to a competitor !!

Regards,

Steve Beach

******************************************

I want to thank all your opinions.

I am not criticizing COE.

I learned a lot on this forum, and this thread prompted me to be a paying member, which I am now. I am also getting support from IBM & Incat. I am waiting for the PO’s to clear the front office.

I think many replies on this thread are correct. Different people are having different experiences with their “support vendors” Xavier KLEIN thinks to open a PMR is most of the time a waste of time, that is his experience. Others have better experience.

Gary Bell says having had direct access to some companies R&D and support people in the past, I find the DS system slow and frustrating.

I agree 100% but that does not change DS as it is today.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) The main point was if DS monitored this forum, the way other software companies, for example, CGTech monitors the Vericut forum; it would lead to more knowledgeable and content and productive users.

Reality check. !!! That is never going to happen. The good news it, according to you guys, COE is next best thing.

(2) the 2nd point is that according to you guys, submitting MPR's is not wasting time.
you can get results here.

In order to get a return on your time invested documenting bugs, and enhancements, your labor must be rewarded with updates that allow you to increase your productivity.

(3) I still like the VIP room Idea. I think the case can be made to DS. You dont want to listen to 5000 people, but those DS has learned don't cry wolf and have good ideas

As Craig helm stated, it would also help DS keep "bad" things, like jim stated, out of this forum. If you have a group of beta testers, and/or trusted people with direct access to a bug site, it would definitely help relieve the frustration of all here on the forum, not just the VIP's for the site.

Stay tuned PAC-MEN!!

Dassault and COE are working together behind the scenes.

My inbox is bursting with power users, that are giving Ideas.

Give it a little time to percolate

I would love to stay and chat, but I have to program something.

Later

What kind of people attend the DPC meetings, where the top 10 are discussed?

What are the DPC meetings like?

How many usually sit in on  these ?

What percentage COE, DS, Customers?

The reason I ask is, I think, I repeat, I think, what we have here with PAC-MEN, is a different kind of Programmer.Not just doers, Not just leaders, leaders AND Doers. Where the rubber meets the road. I am just guessing, that is why I ask. Never been. No time, money, permission, yet.

I look at this for a blueprint, but also, I want to do some things different.

I hope I get more than one response from these questions

Thanks PAC-MEN

Dave

Dave - KK Here. Thanks for setting up this group. I am excited to see the activity on this thread and to read the various comments made by everyone.

A quick introduction for everyone on the thread - My name is Krishna (more often I go by KK) and I am with DS (Been with DELMIA since 94). My latest role is as the Channel manager for DELMIA solutions in NA (Sales role for non-large accounts like Boeing or Lockheed).

I would like to understand the key issues faced by our customers using CATIA/DELMIA manufacturing solutions and work towards resolving these.

More developments to come - stay tuned

KK