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COE DISCUSSION FORUM
Subject: Hybrid Design... Enable: yes/no

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Author Messages
PBARNA


30 Sep 2008 10:37 AM

Hybrid Design... Enable: yes/no

Hello everyone. I would like to take a census.

Do you enable Hybrid design or not and Why.

Also the next box as well..........

Thanks Phil.


Philip Barna
Arden Engineering Inc.
Tooling Design\Programming 3-5 Axis
DAVE_FRANK


30 Sep 2008 10:39 AM
Philip

I have been advised, that is is best to not use hybrid.
I'll call you later and explain, Got a deadline

Chief Instigator MFG ‘PAC-MEN’ Group dfrank nospam @ forrestmachining.nospam.com
Programmers Advising Catia - Making Enhancements Needed
Dell 690 XEON dual QUADZILLA core, 8 gig ram, dual FX4500,SLI
TPRICKETT

30 Sep 2008 10:39 AM
NO NO NO
DAVE_FRANK


30 Sep 2008 10:41 AM
Tprickett,

I sence your are holding back.
Tell us how you really feel

Chief Instigator MFG ‘PAC-MEN’ Group dfrank nospam @ forrestmachining.nospam.com
Programmers Advising Catia - Making Enhancements Needed
Dell 690 XEON dual QUADZILLA core, 8 gig ram, dual FX4500,SLI
DAYTONSWAN

30 Sep 2008 10:45 AM

No I don't, never have. Never will, don't like yellow bodies...


Regards
Daytonswan
ESHASTEEN

30 Sep 2008 11:15 AM

Heck YES!

Rather than have a referenced plane (for example) hidden off somewhere in a geometric set, you can have it in your partbody right where it is referenced. That way if you need to modify it for some reason you do not need to go searching for it.

The plane example may be a little to simplistic - I realise you can quickly get to the parameters of a referenced plane, but hopefully the idea gets across.

I know several years ago hybrid design was discouraged, but if you are at a fairly current release you should be OK.

I HIGHLY recommend it!

JACK

30 Sep 2008 11:23 AM

NO.  we have disabled the option and locked it so users cannot enable it.

Because it would cause too much confusion to try to implement now, many years after we established our modeling methods. Our users have become too familiar with working with unordered Geom Sets.  The advantages Hybrid Design offers, do not outweigh the disadvantages for us.

(not that Hybrid Design is a bad thing)

DAVE_FRANK


30 Sep 2008 11:24 AM

Correct me if I am wrong

With Hybrid, Don't you have to reorder, if you want to build of a piece of geo, using somthing below on the tree. Don't you have to move it up to before?

I hope this discussion continues. There is a lot to this.

 


Chief Instigator MFG ‘PAC-MEN’ Group dfrank nospam @ forrestmachining.nospam.com
Programmers Advising Catia - Making Enhancements Needed
Dell 690 XEON dual QUADZILLA core, 8 gig ram, dual FX4500,SLI
TPRICKETT

30 Sep 2008 12:24 PM
Well, I admit I haven't messed with it for ... 3 or 4 years, I guess. Maybe one of these days I'll take a little time to investigate in a current release. I just remember getting really frustrated when parts of my model disappeared (while working in the middle of the tree), and I couldn't seem to find a way to make it work. Probably just me.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else is having success with it, though.

Thanks,
Tomm
PBARNA


30 Sep 2008 01:01 PM

Here is some more thoughts

www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm


Philip Barna
Arden Engineering Inc.
Tooling Design\Programming 3-5 Axis
JMCMILLANNA

30 Sep 2008 02:08 PM

I think it was put in for PRO-E converts?

ESHASTEEN

30 Sep 2008 02:25 PM
Tomm,

Parts of your model will definitely disappear if you are working in the middle of your tree, I view that as a good thing personally. Talk to your buddy Wes W., he is a hybrid proponent and helped "convert" me.

Unless I have a specific customer requirement, I will not even consider non-hybrid. If for some reason I want to "organize" reference geometry in a geometric set, I still have that option with hybrid ... the geometry does not "have" to be in the partbody tree - I would highly recommend leaving any support geometry in the partbody tree, however.
DAVE_FRANK


30 Sep 2008 03:05 PM
Posted By JMCMILLANNA on 30 Sep 2008 02:08 PM

I think it was put in for PRO-E converts?

 

Really

Well, is that case Dassault was very considerate


Chief Instigator MFG ‘PAC-MEN’ Group dfrank nospam @ forrestmachining.nospam.com
Programmers Advising Catia - Making Enhancements Needed
Dell 690 XEON dual QUADZILLA core, 8 gig ram, dual FX4500,SLI
WICHARD


30 Sep 2008 03:22 PM

I also heard it was for ProE converts. And yes, if that's true it was nice of Dassualt.Well, sort of (come use our software, we'll make it easy for you).


CATIA V5 R18 SP6 - Dell Precision 690 - NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 - XP 64bit 4GB RAM
PBARNA


30 Sep 2008 04:06 PM

Well, when I first started I had no pref. one way or another. Didn't really know about it.

Never really gave it much thought. Always it was enabled. Default I think.

Months down the road I learned of it. Stayed in it, enabled....

I took a course at INCAT and the instructor said "Just stay with it not enabled".

Said it was better. There was too much to go over in the class so we really never got into it "WHY"?

So on the following work day back we changed to "no" hybrid design. I really miss it though.

When designing a fixture I can always create a geo set anytime and place items in it when desired w hybrid.

Also, as I would design it is not set in stone. I rethink approaches all the time to figure out the best way possible which may mean a deletion or a major change of a feature.

In Hybrid I always know what is dependent upon another by its placement in the tree. Non-Hybrid I have planes, geo and surfaces in side "geo sets" and when I change my design in a body I get a out of cycle alarm and other messages. Most of the time It cannot be fixed and I have to delete items of interest I would rather keep. In Hybrid those same Items I would be able to fix, reorder, change sketch support, etc. and move on. Features seem to get messed up easier without hybrid on.

This is really starting to get on my nerves.

 

So from the post here and other forums I have visited....

At one time it was not available for us to use.

Companies had established company wide settings and were locked in.

Change to it was not an option and IT wasn't about to change it.

Customers do not use it so we don't either.

 

I for one like it better than non hybrid. Both work well. Both are ok. But in hybrid I feel I have more control over what I am doing. Creating a Geo set when I need and being able to provide myself a plane or ? inside a part body tree area if I choose. This may be a time for changing of the guards. So far no one can say exactly why its better so far. Its a new feature. It has advantages. NON-Hybrid has limitations yes? Right? Honestly has someone worked w hybrid for a while. Get use to it and then say they still do not like it?

Maybe this is something the big companies may need to consider changing with in the company. I don't know about you guys but I feel a revolution coming on... Don't you?

Thanks Phil       


Philip Barna
Arden Engineering Inc.
Tooling Design\Programming 3-5 Axis
MBERRY

30 Sep 2008 04:20 PM
I think one of the other reasons that many companies do not allow it is that mass calculations with hybrid design are wrong. At least that was the case in some of the earlier releases but maybe it has been fixed in a more recent release?

Mike
PBARNA


30 Sep 2008 04:46 PM
Ok I just checked and the properties are the same for mass and other measurements of the solid.
V5 R18 sp6 64 bit

Philip Barna
Arden Engineering Inc.
Tooling Design\Programming 3-5 Axis
SKWOK

30 Sep 2008 09:45 PM
Okay, here's my take on Hybrid Design. In short:

1. New users, hybrid design OFF = less restrictive, more user friendly, more intuitive, simpler
2. Non-surfacing models, hybrid design OFF = better, you will ONLY have the ill effects of hybrid design in a non-surfacing model (basically your sketches and planes are the only difference)
3. Simple models including simple surfacing, use geometrical sets hybrid design OFF = better
4. Complex surfacing, Hybrid Design ON = Better, forced organization, easier tree scanning, and in addition to the use of geometric sets, makes an easier to understand/edit model

Basically, in a model that does not require much use of surfacing, there's no reason to use hybrid design. It restricts your usage of out-of-time-order sketches/planes/geometry, while at the same time giving little to no benefit. Particularly for new users who tend to do things out of order (and by new, I also include non-experts, who may have been using CATIA for awhile, but do not use it constantly, consistently, and at a high enough level to automatically do things 'correctly'), hybrid design causes far more warnings than it will ever prevent.

With hybrid design off, at most you will be confused at what you've done yourself, and CATIA will fire a parent/child cycle warning. This is a fairly obvious warning. If you have poor organization you will struggle with your own design. With hybrid design on, the opposite will happen. Your own design will cause CATIA to bite you and refuse to allow you to do things that logically work just fine. Non-parent-child related items suddenly have psuedo-parent-child relationships based purely on when they were created in TIME, which, and again, emphasis on non-experts, is a struggle. It is then extra steps to attempt to reorder the data you want to be acceptable, and it takes both time and effort to do so, not to mention sometimes CATIA will continue to reject the reorder for any number of additional reasons.

Therefore, in a non-surface heavy model, there are no particular benefits, because there simply isn't enough geometry to benefit from the additional organization.

On the flip side, in a surface heavy model, non-hybrid is a nightmare. Parent child conflicts are rampant and you will receive that error more times than you heard "I told you so" from your mother, step mother, and wife, combined, x12. Creating dozens of geometrical sets resolves this problem (something you should do either way, in an ideal world), but even then, you're missing out on some of the benefits. It is far easier to scan a hybrid model than a non-hybrid one, since when you edit or define in work object, it'll automatically revert your model to the correct spot. In a non-hybrid model this is only possible using "scan or define in work object" set to "update", and furthermore, with hybrid off, when you edit something you may have created very early on, you will still visually see (and be able to select) things that are children of it and that came much later.

I can't attest to performance or accuracy, because I simply don't do enough surface modeling to warrant the use of much hybrid design, but the simple rule of thumb is thus:

If you're new, hybrid design OFF (until you're comfortable, then you decide based on below)
If you don't do much surfacing, hybrid design OFF
If you do a lot of surfacing, hybrid design ON

Either way, you should use geometrical sets (named logically) because it will increase your organization by loads anyway, and make edits much easier. Quadruple the importance of naming (sets AND critical features) if you have a lot of reusability and other users may need to understand your model someday.

Steven Kwok
PLM Solutions Consultant
CATIA V5 Instructor
TechniGraphics Inc.
CATIA V5 R16/17/18
CATVBA
VB 6.0
Visual Basic .NET 2003/2005
PBARNA


01 Oct 2008 07:32 AM
Thanks for your input Steven.

That was exactly what I was looking for in a response.

Others please chime in and voice your opinion. One way or another. We are still leaning to Non-Hybrid Design still. Reason: Our customers files.

Philip Barna
Arden Engineering Inc.
Tooling Design\Programming 3-5 Axis
JSTRAWN


01 Oct 2008 07:38 AM
A few other factors:
5) In a larger company, Hybrid and non-Hybrid do not mix very well. You need to choose one or the other and enforce it.
6) If you use a lot of PowerCopies and UserFeatures, Hybrid Design doesn't work very well (or at least it didn't a couple releases back).

Jim Strawn
Cessna Aircraft Co.
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