Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?

Samarinder Singh

Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
First off, I want to thank DS for paying lots of attention to NC MFG recently and adding some new bells and whistles although competition had such feature for years.

My Boss wants to know a few things such as

*Why is it taking so long to fix some existing bugs?
*Why are machining processes not working as intended?
*Why is there so much wasted time in workarounds?
*Why is there a need of importing aptsource from other CAM systems for the some machining op which can’t be done inside Catia?
*Why are we paying so much for maintenance and things aren't getting fixed in due time?

I tell him to start using something else but then again that doesn’t solve the problems we are having with Catia MFG and also it is required for us to use Catia.

Jim Strawn

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
CATIA isn't licensed that way - it is licensed as a "Right to use". That's what PLC and ALC are all about - the PLC is your Primary License Charge and the ALC is your Annual License Charge (Annual Right To Use charge). If you chose to stop paying your ALC, then you lose the right to use the software and your licenses expire.

Sorry

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Interesting Jim,
I am quite sure people continue using thier V4 software after the license is expired.
Are you saying that the V5 license will stop working or are you saying that it will work, but it isn't legal to use it any more?

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Paying maintenance on software is pretty much standard these days. There's no choice- you want to stay up to date with newest releases- you have to pay. In the first couple years, I wasn't too happy about it...but with R19, I am happy because they have made some tremendous leaps on the NC side of Catia. I believe now that Catia R19 has the absolute best automatic roughing strategy I have ever seen. In many cases, I couldn't write something better if I wrote every line one by one. Seriously, it's that good now. Other then a few bugs which are supposed to be fixed in SP4, R19 is excellent. I can't barely complain any more. I asked for 6 different things to be fixed...and every single one of those were fixed in R19...with the Excellent help, service, and support documentation of Mark Chitjian.

However, being a guy that basically just does NC programming, tool design, and blueprinting- it was a concern of mine whether or not to continue maintaining Catia once Dassault no longer makes new releases in V5...R20? R21? Who knows...so I called my salesman (INCAT) and asked them how it works.

If you just stop paying...legally, you're done. So Jim is partially right.

But...if you write them a letter stating that this will be your last maintenance payment...then they will support you at the last release version for 5 licenses. Each license lasts 2 years. So that's 10 years at the last release + whatever time is left on your license...IF you write the letter stating you are cancelling the maintenance. For me, that is satisfactory. Who knows what will happen in 10 years. It's mind boggling what's happened in the LAST 10 years!!!

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Jim,
Now you can pay termination fee which is same as ALC and continue using the software I believe its for 10 or 12 years.
Anyway that wasnt my point as all software offer only "Right to Use" license. But all other software companies are producing better results than Catia and it is a fact. I think DS developers dont have enough to challenge themselves and bring some productive, innovative ideas especially in MFG.
I have numerous examples of parts which cannot be machined using Catia unless you throw in tons of workarounds and spending more man-hours whereas such parts can be machined/programmed in lot less amount of time and have better quality/strategy of toolpath.
Another thing I am pretty sure that you know that ALC covers any software defect. I have submitted some critical defects (part-gouging cutter motions which are show stoppers) to DS in past and they were closed without being fixed. If I go to this Pacific Manufacturing design show I will take such simple part files and give it to DS booth to check it out.

If you cant maintain a good product then it produces a bad customer relation. Let me put it this way..
You design a part and put lots of engineering efforts in it and then you find that machined part doesnt show the quality and on time promise and then you find out that it was due to lack of software fiunctionality.
Currently I got this a simple impeller blade that I wanted to program in Catia but I dont have much time to waste in workarounds and I decided to use UG... well I have this option as my company has UG license.
I want Catia MFG to be better product top of the line. And merely saying it in words doesnt do anything until somebody has to prove it by putting together some really good ideas.
Regards

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Bryan,
Dang it.. I am slow on typing.

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
:popcorn:

This I truly cannot understand why DS/Catia would take this stand. The SW2009 and MCX3 I own is mine to use as long as I wish. Now as long as I make my maintenance payments I get updates and new releases. If I choose to stop the maintenance then where ever I am at, at that time in the rev's of software, that is what I continue to use until I go back on maintenance. Simple.

I could not afford to pay for software that if I could not afford to make maintenance payments any longer, I could no longer use the initial release or latest rev release my payments got me to. It does not sound right to me. They Reel them in. They have you, hook line and sinker.

Does the resellers make sure the customer knows this before they buy? Or its in the fine print. I wonder how many bought only to find this out later. Holy crap! And there is a termination fee? What the heck is that? Its no wonder that smaller shops just do not buy this software. This is what keeps me from purchasing a lic. of my own. And I have considered it. It is too bad because I enjoy using the lic at work. I am getting good at the design end and improving quickly on the MFG side. Really starting to know my way around it. Teaching others too. I could see myself owning this software but the cost of ownership is just too much for one to afford. Only the Big Boys can afford it. Pitiful just Pitiful. Initial cost I could somehow try and afford. The cost to stay with it? :shaking my head looking down: :sad face: :heavy sigh:

Just my 2 cents.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Philip,
SolidWorks is the best CAD package I would ever use. Now it is owned by DS, however their business model is still the same. One of my friend owns SW2004 and he didnt continue with ALC and still he could update his license to SW2009 just paying $500 migration + 1 year ALC only. And this year they are not even charging the $500 fee. I hope DS doesnt destroy SW's business model.
I would love to pay for ALC for SW without any questions asked because I know it is getting better and better every year. It is the best CAD for price/functionality/performance. I can design almost anything 50% faster in SW than I can do it in Catia ( I hate wasting extra click in double clicking )

Patrick Touron

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Thank a lot Bryan for this very positive feedback on R19 and specially on roughing. Such message is very motivating and the team appreciates.

I had taken the commitment during the last COE session and during my meeting with Dav Frank /PAC-MEN community to enhance the roughing and to deliver the best solution as soon as possible. Of course we have others ideas to improve it and to reduce the machining time...but this is for a next release of perhaps on R19SP if it is possible.

If you have any enhancement for roughing that you would like to have ...please update the dedicated discussion in this forum.

Best regards,
Patrick Touron

Patrick Touron

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hello
I would like to come back on the initial message of this discussion …related to "bug" and the time necessary to solve them.

For me, such message is a warning and I would like to investigate, to understand the issue and also identify what we could improve to deliver a "quality solution and/or a better support”.

As you know, I am very committed to deliver the best product and the best Machining functions. Of course a close discussion with users is very positive and we demonstrated that DS/Machining team is in this mindset: "listen machining users to deliver better solution"…of course with a high level of quality.

In our process, the priority is to fix as soon as possible incident report opened by our customers and the team is committed on this objective.

To illustrate that, I did some searches on our PMR database, I found the following one “ABSTRACT: Machining Features not recognized when called in using Machining Applications Process Manager”. The PMR was opened Jan 21 and the target release to solve this issue is R19SP4 which is the first level available to deliver the correction.

Perhaps it is an issue in the process to report the PMR or anything else?

Can you have a call with Mark to discuss about that and we will continue via email.

Best regards,
Patrick Touron

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Thanks for posting to this thread Patrick and I very much appreciate the effort IBM and Dassault are giving to NC Programming concerns.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder and all,

All this discussion is great! It proves that the manufacturing community is alive and well.

Patrick, as always....thanks for posting and monitoring the Forums.

This is a good time to make some clarifications on some of the Forum activities and postings.

There are formal mechanisms for submitting problems/bugs.

The problem Patrick is referring to is PMR (Problem Management Report) #06255. Based on my phone conversation with Samarinder about this problem, I opened the PMR Jan. 21, submitted it to DS and an APAR(Authorized Problem Analysis Report) was opened on Feb 3rd. I consider that reasonable response time. Usually when DS opens an APAR, that means they have duplicated and acknowledged the problem. Currently the APAR is in "Open" status, which means DS is investigating a solution. Once the APAR "closes", DS issues the release and level in which the correction will be made. I receive a notification from DS and inform the PMR submitter.

Upon searching PMRs in the IBM database, I did not find any other PMRs Samarinder reported through our group in the past 6 months.

Problem reporting should be done through IBM (for IBM customers) or through DS (for DS customers). So bear in mind, that if you post your bugs here on the Forum, there is no guarantee that they will be sent to DS.

If you have an IBM Customer number, you can submit bug reports as a PMR. This will ensure that the PMR will either get to my desk or one of my colleagues on the NC Tech Support team. We are responsible for submitting problems to DS and tracking their status. Contact me if you need further information on getting registered for problem submission using the IBM website and tools. You can also check out http://www.ibm.com/software/applications/plm/support. That is the website where you can submit and track your problems.

Some of you may be direct DS customers and DS has a problem reporting system that you may also use. Contact your DS rep or business partner for further information on their procedures. I have no visibility on those problem submissions.

Contact me directly if you have any questions on problem/bug reporting. The tools are there for you to use.



Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Contact your DS rep or business partner for further information on their procedures. I have no visibility on those problem submissions


Mark,
Thanks for great support on submitting the problems. Is there any way I can change my VAR from INCAT to IBM? Because this same problem I tried to submit thru INCAT among others, didnt go thru well.


For me, such message is a warning and I would like to investigate, to understand the issue and also identify what we could improve to deliver a "quality solution and/or a better support”.


Patrick,

Thanks for getting involved into this, and for all you support. I have all the email records about submitting some of problems thru INCAT which were closed without being fixed. And I tried to submit such issues thru RAND almost 2 years ago. If you need any of these records I can email it you. But meanwhile I am trying to submit all those things again thru IBM since the company I work at is IBM customer. And Mark is really taking good care of such issues.

Regards

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark- Excellent. This is exactly the problem- guys THINK they have submitted a PMR, but certain unnamed companies aren't too good about putting them through...so it doesn't get done. With Mark's help, I have submitted many PMR's, and several enhancement requests. Most of them have gotten attention. Some of my enhancement requests may not have- but that could be because Dassault doesn't agree with my idea. That's their right and I respect that.

Patrick- no problem. I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. I have been using R19 to rough several parts now, and I can't think of any enhancements! That doesn't mean there aren't any...it just means I can't find any, yet...Good job Patrick, and please extend my thanks to your team.

Dave, I really think we should try to have a User Group meeting. We need to brainstorm ideas and keep the enhancements going...they're listening! So let's get some ideas together, document them, and submit them! We need to start with what's simple...and gradually get more complex.

For me, the Number ONE priority for enhancements would be in transition, Clearance, and linking macro's. We need more control! We need to be able to change any feedrate in any macro in any MO- the problems are in the surfacing MO's. We are not able to change the feedrates, and there are bugs with editing the Veritical and Horizontal lines in Clearance macro's on Surface type MO's. We need to be able to control the transition feedrate between Linking Macro's, so we can keep that in Rapid...especially important when using rework areas.

Great job guys!

I'm glad this topic turned into something positive.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
What was the question?

Yes, of course it is worth it.

You have to measure performance, by looking at the large picture, not small things that do not function. Some things may take a week to fix, but it may take a long time to get to that week. That is project management, and priorities.

My vision, starting PAC-MEN, was to see all these threads all over, get some focus, compiling a list to eliminate duplicated effort. And tie subject together that make since to be looked at together.

When I made the first post on the PAC-MEN thread (if you are interested... click here), I had no real working knowledge of the COE mechanisms. Shortly after, I found out that the what the DPC is, and does, and that it already had a list. We, we were able to come up with things that were new.

We have an opportunity with the upcoming tooling Webinar, to work together.

My goal is to show some potential solutions, and see other users potential solutions, with regards to tooling.

If we can have a good discussion, of what will work, what will be an improvement, and get a consensus meaning that most can agree upon, I hope that Dassault can be confident that time spent implementing a potential new functionality(s), we ask for, will be received with wide acceptance by the manufacturing community. As apposed to a few users.

Furthermore, if we show DS that we are a great resource, to assist in getting ideas, solutions, and constructive criticism in focus,.... perhaps DS can schedule these kind of brainstorming workshops, on a regular basis. Take the Top Ten, and do one a month. Something like that.

Dave

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I will also be at the Pacific Design show tomorrow. An army of DS experts will be there.

Hey looking forward to seeing everyone there.
I'll be there for a few hours mid day, then it's back to work. I'm excited about this show. First time for me. Hoping to shake a few hands. Put a face with a name.
Hey Bryan you going? At what time? Call me. Seeya there Dave.
Arden will represent!

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Dave,

Regarding a user meeting...That will be great. I have a big rec room available for use, also if you need a meeting place. As Dassault has added more and more functionality, I'd like to see what else we can come up with. Honestly, I only have a few ideas...not much. I'm interested in finding ways to make "better" what is already there, as well as new enhancements. They really seem to listen to good ideas, and it seems like when we tell them EXACTLY what we want clearly in a way that makes sense- they really do use our input. I'm really glad to see this. Thanks so much for your help organizing PAC-MEN. It's great and we've gotten a LOT done!!! To be honest, R19 is great, and what's there is great. We just need to work out the kinks and get everything working like it's supposed to...though I have some enhancements I'd like to see to linking/transition/clearance macro's, Safety Cylinder's and Sphere's, and repair a few bugs...but heck, I'd also like to see full blown high-level APT within Catia so everyone can gain the advantages I have with my seperate APT processor. With it, there's really absolutely nothing I can't make the tool do...limited only by my own creativity and skill.

I will be at the conference tomorrow (Tuesday) around 11:00. I have some of you guys' cell phones and I'll be in touch. It will be fun to see all of you, and I look forward to speaking some French hopefully with some guys from Dassault~! No...real french...not 4-letter word French...just kidding.

I'm just going to do like Phil and have some popcorn now...glad it's not me this time...

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I'm just going to do like Phil and have some popcorn now...glad it's not me this time...

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Phil- go to sleep. Been making blueprints like a madman...time for bed.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Am I going to have to smack someone upside the head with the Dale Carnegie book?
We're making progress here guys. Be happy.

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Ah Roger, This is nothing compared to some other forums.

Opps-Dang is that a Dale Carnegie book comming my way? :ducking: Ha Missed me....

Hey Roger will you be at the design show? You're probably far away right? If so maybe another time. Look forward to meeting you sometime.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I'm in CT Phil and most likely won't make that show.
I am taking a week off to attend COE in Seattle.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Peace

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I will be there Roger in Seattle. See ya there.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Cool. I'm looking forward to it.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
My company has dropped maintenance on 1 mastercam, 1 vericut, and they have dropped 5 catia seats and looking to drop 2 more as well if they dont see the results.
On the other hand, I paid the ALC for my personal seat for this year and hoping that lots of bugs getting fixed.
Also the management is keeping track of company hours being spent into workarounds (which includes using AptImports from other systems) And then it'll be reevaluated for what system to be used either Catia or UG.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Peace Dave.

Samarinder, with all the customizing you do in CATIA (with good results), I predict you will be using it for a long time. Too bad you have to customize so much, but with upcoming Dassault enhancements and your enhancements you will have the perfect system one day.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Today, boss#2 made it very clear that he would go with UG/NCL and keep Catia only to read catparts.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder,

What about Boss #1? What is the primary reason for decision by Boss #2?

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
The "lead" programmer over there was a UG guy. They have legacy (and new) NCL jobs. Not reasons...just facts about the company.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I programmed NCL there for a few years. Kind of a sweat shop.
Tho I was the only programmer so I didn't have to deal with other systems or other programmers.

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
If I want to use Catia "properly", I have to use naming conventions, Directory convention, catalog's, etc...you know what I mean...These things are all part of my DPD quality manual. I use to hate it...but it FORCES me to do things in a way that have the best chance of creating quality. Some companies don't like all the procedures. They just want to get a part, and program it any way they want. These procedures are really good for me. They are a complete part of the "way" I do program parts, and enable me to do things faster, and better, since I have them in place.

I might write an article for next month about Catia and my recommended DPD procedures if I have time. I think some companies are way too complicated. Other's don't have any procedures. I've had to read the Boeing requirements thoroughly, and it actually leaves a lot of lee-way for a supplier. Pretty much, it just states that there HAS to BE a system...but doesn't define THE system.

I think misunderstanding of these realities scare some companies from using Catia. But these procedures are what takes a company to the "next level" in quality and organization.

SYN/OT,OFTPIC, CU, CUSTMR, CO, COMPNY, CF, CARFUL, SI, SISTER, CM, CMPRND

I know this all may seem a little OT, but the SI CO is one of my CU, so I have to be CF.

CM?

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark,

Boss#1 is buddy of Boss#2 .

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Die thread! Die!

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hey, I worked at sister company too. lol

It's all good Dave.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
ohhhh, why didn't my image work? I wish I could post like everyone else.
Sikorsky security pays a large percentage of my wages. lol

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
ROFLMAO!

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I'm one lucky guy, actually. Samarinder had to pay his ALC to get all the goodies in R19....turns out the timing was perfect for me, because I cancelled right after R19 SP4 came out, which I consider to make Catia (along with all my "enhancing VBScripts, catalog's, etc....basically setting up Catia "right"...which takes some real time and effort) to be serious ass-kicking software for CAM programming. There's not much I need, and definitely not much I need that I couldn't script....being that anything you do can be scripted if you can find the API's...and anything can become a repetitive task.

So...I got my perpetual license from DS a couple days ago! Yay!!! The expiration date on it is 6/9/2019....that should be good enough...but they told me in 2019, if I still want it, they'll just send me another 10 year license!

So for those that think you have to pay ALC to use Catia...I think that proves that you don't, unless you want to. It's too bad about the rumour...because I think it really hurts Catia sales. They should also think about GIVING away V6....so people will actually use it....then they'd make money off the V6 maintenance. I think Fortune is just one example of what's going to happen all over the place, if some better marketing decisions are made....with everyone attacking the CAM company that's on top...so on top...they don't even waste time/money advertising in any of the machining magazines!

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
With all the work you have, I'd think the maintenance fee would be insignificant.
I plan to pay mine and I'm not even using it. lol

Good to hear you have everything working smoothly. You must be getting board with no struggle.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
This post just won't DIE !!

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Nobody does what they are told around here.

Got my dang emoticon to work. yipee!

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I knew you could do it

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I submitted 2 bugs back in March where MAFC was gouging drive surface with a regular endmill or a corner radius endmill and in other case conical endmill with .125" tip radius. I was ho[ing that DS would nail down the problem but here are the response I got from DS

In first case I could not understand much what they are trying to say but I tried every possible way including the one they are suggesting here and it still gouges the drive surface

DS response:

ABSTRACT: MultiAxis Flank operation gouges part

INCIDENT DIAGNOSIS
Collisions found in this Process.
.
The collisions are computed with the
selected Design (in the part operation).
.
In this case, the design is made of a
surface and a Part . The design MUST be
the surface in order to be coherent with the
computation of the tool path.
CORRECT APPLICATION
1 The contact height is not correct value (
tab page tool axis in strategy). This height
controls the point on the cutter that is to
remain tangent to the drive surface and is
typically the height of the corner radius
and always at a point on the cutter that is
lower than the height of the surface being
driven.
.
Since this height is set to the top of the
cutter, the cutter will remain tangent to the
surface extension at this location. It lead to
collisions


In other case DS is saying that I can not use conical endmills and I am surprised that this conical endmill is available in MAFC toolpath command and online help docs recommend the usage of such conical endmills as well
here is text from online docs:
Multi-Axis Flank Contouring: Tool
Recommended tools for Multi-Axis Flank Contouring are End Mills and Conical Mills.



DS response:

PROBLEM SUMMARY:
Machining (AMG) / MultiAxis Flank Contouring operation gouges part when using conical tool.
Machining (AMG) / MultiAxis Flank Contouring
operation gouges part when using conical tool.
.
Scenario:
1) Open Provided CATprocess file
2) Please replay all operations using T1 Conical
Mill D 0.625 x .125R Ballnose tool.
Notice each operation there are collisions
3. Replay all operations using "1/4 Ball End Mill"
These are the same operations as in step 1, but
using a straight cutterNotice there is NO collisions
Result : There is collision using conical tool but no
collision using ballnose tool.
.
This is a BIG problem for the user, he cannot use
conical tools for these toolpaths. Using a "straight"
tool is much weaker than the conical tool
.
Excepted result : Collision should not occur using
conical tool
.

PROBLEM CONCLUSION:
THIS PROBLEM IS PERMANENT RESTRICTION IN
CATIA
INCIDENT DIAGNOSIS
The problem is that the tool is not suitable for this
model.
.
RESTRICTION EXPLANATION
Tool radius must be like the filler radius in this
condition
When setting the corner radius to 6.5 ( the fillet
radius) and decreasing the cutter height there is no
collision
.
The contact height can lead to a better tool path. It
must be decreased.
BYPASS
Change corner radius to 6.5mm and cutting length
to 11.439 mm




Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
So I ended up using sequential-mill toolpath command from UG for those corner and brought the cl file back inside Catia. And it opened up another can of problems which I submitted but no fix yet. In aptimport Catia was changing the tool-axis vectors. First I thought it was my post-processor when I saw those gouges in Vericut but then after spending some agonizing hours I found that it was Catia causing the problem. So in the end I post-processed the UG-clsf file separately and combined with rest of the nc-code using cut and paste in text editor.
Being a full time contract programmer I cant afford such permanent restrictions.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Yuk! Get em Samarinder.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Patrick,

The conical end mill problem was reported in PMR 29394,227,000. I have sent you the pmr text and Word doc (from DS). HD83812 was closed as "PRS".

The contact point problem is PMR 29391. HD83811 closed as "USE".
All files sent to DS were included in my email to you.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Roger,
It would have been a lot different if I was working with Boeing or some another giant with many Catia seats.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I tested these gouges in SP5 and they are still there.
And one more thing I found another warning message about Resource visualization failed. Another bug.

Upon further testing, this message shows only if collision checking is active in the Part Operation.

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I'm curious if these paths were working okay in R18, or if they just never worked....? In other words, are these bugs that were introduced only in R19?

Many times, I have to completely rebuild surfaces using Fill, choosing contours, and support surfaces in order to get MAFC paths to cut correctly without gouging surfaces. This is usually because of the way the solid models were built. Otherwise, the tool axis vectors are all over the place. In cases with a Conical Endmill, I usually don't pick any corner fillets at all. Usually, that will give me a bad toolpath. Rather, I will use local mods (usually using "to" and "left") and adding HSM (automatic cornering) with the correct radius in order to get the correct corner fillet. Yes, this is a lot of work, but often the only way I can get a good path in Catia.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder,

Why do think your toolpaths would be better in SP5? If you are using the same models you sent me for PMRs 29394 and 29391 then nothing will have changed. One apar closed "PRS" and the other "USE". I sent all the files to Patrick T. asking him to look at these these problems, but have had NO response (see 7/1/09 posting).

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark,
Oh I am sorry, I almost forgot that it usually takes longer than 1 sp to get such bugs fixed. So I guess I have to wait a bit longer.
Thanks

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
p.s. These paths were never good in R18 either and I tried my best to report it last year thru my VAR but everything fell on deaf ear And thanks to Mark for getting it submitted within a few days.

And yes these surfaces were regenerated in Catia and still the same result.

Patrick Touron

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hello,
I would like to reply to Samarinder post on Multi-axis flank issues and complement the DS answer on those 2 PMRs:
1) 29394,227,000
HD83812 closed PRS

First of all, I confirm that DELMIA does support conical tools in the Multi-axis flank contouring operation.
The issue with this PMR, is that some parameters of the tool are not appropriate for this model (this is what we meant by “the tool is not suitable for this model”).

This concerns mainly the following parameter:
- the cutting length (which is too high for the model)
Indeed, the diameter at the top of the cutter is too large to correctly drive this geometry. The radius of the Drive 2 surface (“vertical” cylinder in the corner) is 6.35, while the radius of the top of the cutter is 7.918. See picture below.
With tool length as defined in the PMR (fig1)
With tool length shortened to 20mm (fig2)

The proposed methodology (shortened conical tool) leads to a correct tool path without collisions.

2) 29391, 227,000
HD83811 Closed "USE"

We emphasize the fact that the parameter "Contact height" is key in the Multi-axis flank contouring operation.
This height controls the point on the cutter that is to remain tangent to the drive surface and is
typically the height of the corner radius and always at a point on the cutter that is lower than the height of the surface being driven.
Since this height (in the case of this PMR) is set to the top of the cutter, the cutter will remain tangent to the surface extension at this location. It may leads to collisions.
By lowering the tangency height, the system will keep the lower part of the cutter tangent to the surface and keep the top of the cutter from gouging the guide curve.
Changing the tangency height to the corner height (1.5875) will cause the tool not to gouge the surface.
Also, the auxiliary guide has to be extended.
You must add some contours at the beginning of the guide in order to eliminate the last collisions points at the beginning of the tool path

We notice as well some inconsistency in the surface definition.
The external skin (yellow in the below picture) is given as drive.
But the design part at the PO level is composed of the same external surface AND the internal skin (in blue). We remind that the design part as defined in the PO is taken into account for collision checking.







Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Thanks for the explanation Patrick.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Patrick,

1) 29394,227,000
HD83812 closed PRS
With tool length shortened to 20mm (fig2)


I tried with R19 Sp4 and it didn't work. Could you please send me the catprocess file?

Also here is the link to the website where I got the conical endmill (E-408C) which is not 20mm long.

http://www.conicalendmills.com/cfivedegree.htm

I didnt have any problem using the same cutter in UG (please see attached pics). And I was expecting the same from Catia V5.

Thanks for explaining the proposed solution.



COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hello Patrick,

If it is easier for you, send me the CATProcess and associated files and I can forward them to Samarinder.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark
Thanks for your help.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark,

Did you get a chance to look at the CATProcess files?

Thanks

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder,

Good timing. I just sent you an avi file I received from DS this morning. They report that the problem is corrected in R20. Take a look at the video. It looks good to me (although very fast). It is definitely on R20.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Good stuff guys. When is R20 due out?

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Currently, the target date for R20 is February 5, 2010.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mark,

Thanks for the info.
I reported this problem on R19 and I wanted it to be fixed in R19 in due time to make my maintenance worth paying.

Because in this bad economy I have decided(99%) not to continue with maintenance. Now it is not fair to the customers to wait for another release and pay extra money to get the fix.
I am just curious isn't DS supposed to release R20 within a year of releasing R19. So if customers have paid for entire year of maintenance they can get updated software with major bugs fixed.

Last company I worked with, they canceled the maintenance on everything but UG and they still got new release of NCL after 2 months because the gentleman from NCL told them that if customer paid the maintenance for the entire year then customer is entitled to next release even if it was released a couple of months later.

I think this is a major bug iniside R19 and customers would like to see some SPxx or HFxx for R19 because not every customer is going to jump on R20 even if they are on current on maintenance.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder,

Even though the issue with tapered tools is very bothersome, DS will not consider it to be a "showstopper". Thus, no hot fix or correction in a later service pack on R19. If a bug arises that completely shuts down your ability to proceed, then a hot fix would be considered. In this case (however painful) there is a workaround.

In regards to your comments on DS scheduling to offer new releases annually, I will defer to DS or Patrick T. to comment.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By MCHITJIAN on 23 Sep 2009 12:48 PM

Samarinder,

Good timing. I just sent you an avi file I received from DS this morning. They report that the problem is corrected in R20. Take a look at the video. It looks good to me (although very fast). It is definitely on R20.


Hi Mark,

I saw the avi file but it doesn't address the following reports/issues

HD83811
HD83812

Thanks

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Dude, they aren't going to fix it....if there's a workaround, no matter how painful, they wont' fix it. We've seen this enough times to realize that. This is why we should NEVER post the workaround. I'm as guilty as anyone for that.

They're going to say, remove the corner, use local mod's, and clean it up with a different tool. Or, they are blaming the contact height, or the surface quality. Fact #1, is that it IS mathematically possible to put that tool into that part without gouging anything. You say that UG can do it. So Catia must have a bad algorithm, or at least one that needs to be advanced for conical endmills, if they're going to claim it can be used in MAFC.

Fact #2 is that contact height doesn't work like CUTTER/OPTION the way it does in APT, and the way it should.

Example, go into a MAFC using a 2" ball endmill and set the contact height to .375. In theory, the side of the endmill should look like it's gouging the part without any user representation. Now, the reason to be able to do this, is imagine you are using that tool for toolpath computation, but the ACTUAL tool (displayed with a user rep) is a .750 diameter tool with a 1" nose radius.

Contact height just doesn't always work...there's bugs, but there's workarounds, and as long as there's workarounds, you have to bite the bullet, unless it's a show stopper. Prove that there's a real show-stopper, and you might get the problem fixed.

My 2 cents....but I'm not paying maintenance anymore, as the topic asks, so I wouldn't benefit from any repairs anyways....

To answer the original question- is it worth it? Not anymore. 1 release per year, which takes nearly the rest of the year to get a service pack that's useable, and the next thing you know, there's a new release with just as many bugs...

It was worth it until R19, I think....

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I have seen a tremendous improvement in Catia MFG with the release of R19 and if they continue to do so in the future in a timely manner, then I would say it is worth paying for.

In the last 5 months I have been digging lots and lots of info on vb automation for MFG. I went thru COE archives one by one all the way back to 2000 and explored DS website archives back to 2004.

I found lots of good info on Catia. Also I noticed where users are struggling, especially in MFG area, where help is next to none. Sometimes users are asking basic questions/enhancements unaware that related functionality exists in the software.

The quality feedback/communication from end-users is very important. I think it is happening now with the recent webinars/surveys.

And quality feedback will only come when users put themselves and the software to a challenge to perform better with continuous improvement. Not the other way around where the user is just getting by killing the same fly over and over with the same mallet for long time.

For example I have done some lathe programming in brand-x and now I want to do the same things in Catia. First of all, I would collect good info in order to utilize the software and then ask my instructor/tech-support how to do certain things in Catia which I was doing in brand-x software.

If all efforts fail, then I would say that it is time for an immediate enhancement/improvement.

If Brand-X is doing the same things better and producing the results efficiently (time saving, cost saving) and it’s been there for years, then I would like to know why the Brand-X have better software developers with better ideas.

What do you think?
a. They have better feedback/communication from their end-users
b. or they are extraordinarily smart and have a clever software developing team
c. or their team is a believer of lean and continuous improvement philosophy
d. or they just do plain dumb things and somehow people are crazy about it

Patrick Touron

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
hello
for me ...the best is to have an excellent ecosystem with people using my solution....This ecosystem is the opportunity for me to listen, listen their problems, to identify the right enhancement to deliver in each release and to define /implement the right command inside the product.

best regards, patrick touron

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
My maintenance is due January 9th and I plan to pay it.
My experience with CATIA began in 1983. It has come a long way since then and I'm in for the long haul.
To me, the maintenance charges are worth it.

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Mr. T has indeed spoken. Merci Beacoup. And he's right. Think about this...if the big boys have tons of automation and programming based upon a version of Catia, it doesn't make much sense for them to make major, major changes that will adversely affect the big boys with lots and lots of Catia seats. They'd be very upset to have to deal with updating thousands of scripts, perform all that training, etc...I'm very, very satisfied with Catia R19, and feel there is nothing major that I really need that would make life easier...at least that I couldn't get done with VB....so I decided to be happy with what I got, and hopefully program in business for many more years at the current level. The few remaining bugs, I can live with, and have workarounds for. To be frank, with some of the enhancement requests that have been asked for lately, I just want to stay with where I'm at...and not mess up a good thing. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. With my style of programming R19 is just fine. Catia's just a tool for me to help make aptsource data...and it does the job very well.

I agree. Delete this post. It doesn't do any good. If you don't want to pay maintenance, then don't. If you hate Catia so much, that you have 9 bad things to say for every 1 good thing, and you still went out and bought Catia, then that says a lot more about YOU than it does about DS. It's hilarious, actually. Since R19 came out, I couldn't be happier. Nearly every enhancement I asked for has been implemented. I feel spoiled, and apologize for whining before. At least, I'm man enough to admit it, rather than keep this post up, to hold DS hostage and blackmail them into changes. Like they care about 1 guy's complaining, when they hold the largest CAD/CAM share of the market in the world... I'm pretty sure, they have done something right to get to that point, unless we would believe that one guy is smart and the rest of the world are idiots. I don't think so...some of us doubled or tripled our wages with Catia. That's pretty impressive.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Bryan,

Great post. Again I am more respectful of you since your metamorphosis

I don't think Samarinder hates CATIA at all. He is as you are Bryan, an lot happier now then in the past. He just has a funny way of showing it.

I actually discussed this post a few weeks before his post of 03 Nov 2009 03:25 PM. He agreed to straighten things out. He started out by saying : " I have seen a tremendous improvement in Catia MFG with the release of R19 and if they continue to do so in the future in a timely manner, then I would say it is worth paying for, but then ends up with :
What do you think?
a. They have better feedback/communication from their end-users
b. or they are extraordinarily smart and have a clever software developing team
c. or their team is a believer of lean and continuous improvement philosophy
d. or they just do plain dumb things and somehow people are crazy about it
Yeechhhh

He in my opinion Samarinder is just trying to motivate Dassault developers and to implement his enhancements, and fix bugs he is seeing. But they are already doing that. Keeps a knocking when the door is open. I think Samarinder is taking a, galacticly brainless method of motivating our friends. Luckily, they have a thick skin.

Bryan said: "to hold DS hostage and blackmail them into changes " Dave says: I never used the word blackmail, but from the beginning, I thought that. I could see how it could be interpreted many ways, and one way to blackmail, is the threat to keep posting every little bug and flaw, real or imagined, on this thread that strikes at the heart of any company, revenue.

Bryan, I respectfully enlighten you with your assessment, that Dassault does not care about 1 guy's complaining. I discussed this very topic with Patrick at COE 2009, including this thread. Patrick stated clearly, "I just want Samarinder to be happy". I then got a big laugh from him when I told him I bought a Toyota Sequoya limited for my wife, because I just want wife to be happy. And the wife was happy, Unbelievably happy. For about 3 friggen days. After that, I was a piece of shit because I did not take out the trash. I told Patrick this story and he was ROFLHAO.

Then we left the political behind us, and rolled up our sleeves and went over technical issues.

Bryan, also you are very, very satisfied with Catia, but I and others, still are looking forward to the CATIA we have tomorrow. I am sure some of you have noticed the increase in activity from me and there is more to come.

Samarinder, I suggest that you make a list of your issues, and number them. That way Patrick and his crew will find it easier address them. I am all in favor of lists. That is how I started PACMEN, and the list grows, and shrink, and DS fixes, and new programmers have new issues.

I do not think this post should be deleted. People get fuzzed up about Censorship. I learned that one. But people are free to revise their comments.

I think it should be renamed by Samarinder after Samarinder's attitude changes enough for Samarinder to no longer want to be associated with the phrase " Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?"

So there.
Best Regards to all and happy Holidays
Dave

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hi Patrick,

I am always there to help by giving quality feedback. And I do appreciate the software but I just want to get more out of it. And I know DS is capable of doing that.

However there is lot of bitterness in this thread caused by a few people. But I am trying to improve myself and being respectful, so I tend to ignore petty comments/attacks. Because never has there been a place in this world where everybody agrees with each other.

Regards

Samarinder Singh

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By DFRANK on 25 Nov 2009 04:49 PM
Samarinder, I suggest that you make a list of your issues, and number them.


Dave,

I always documented my stuff and even inside the catprocess files if one MO doesnt work and there is a workaround for it with another MO.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By SAMARINDER on 25 Nov 2009 08:56 PM
I am trying to improve myself and being respectful




Shane Long

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
STOP HIJACKING THE POST!!!! THIS IS ABOUT....wait! Whats this about again? *Damn jingle bells wont stop running through my head*
I finally got the big thumbs up on updating to R19... YAY....

1 point I want to make:
Mr. Felsher, your opinions and experience are of great value to this community as we all have benefited from your nuggets of wisdom. The common practice among ALL "wares" companies is the continued maintenance. You all know this, but the real value in paying maintenance is not the bug fixes and enhancements, although that definately is the justification, its the overall continued development that may not come right away but builds on the future of CAD/CAM in general. If what you have works for you, then great, but to say "if it aint broke, dont fix it" is a very perfunctory statement to make regarding your current state of operation. If we all shared that same mantra then we would all still be programming in smartCAM or APT alone or????....because we have all had to make it happen with what we have to use. Im truly glad that someone can say:"The few remaining bugs, I can live with, and have workarounds for. To be frank, with some of the enhancement requests that have been asked for lately, I just want to stay with where I'm at..." and as a business owner that might be the perfect decision for you to make and that should be applauded as most business owners these days cant seem to make a good decision to save thier lunch money. I guess what Im trying to say is, your position is completely understood and respected, but, your opinion and experience will be greatly missed as things move forward. And they will move forward.
Wow, that sounds like your dying or something lol...

So, pay your maintenance or dont pay your maintenance? I say lets buy a Keg instead and talk about it!!!!

Just my 1 1/2 cents... Hope you all had a great thanksgiving

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Sam Adams

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Okay...here's a long post...I probably should have just turned it in as an article...

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the good words. Good words from a good man. Below, I will speak of "my Catia." By that, I mean my version, the way I use/configure it, and my computers- since there's so many configurations and methods- many of which are good, many of which are not.). I use ONLY Catia certified hardware, and believe strongly in that, having heard and experienced some of the horror stories in the old days. In my opinion, if you're not using 100% Catia certified hardware and OS, then you take the risk of having bugs that you wouldn't normally have. For those using Windows XP Pro 32 bit like me, that means SP2 (not 3!). I use quadro FX4500 with certified driver, and Intel CPU. I have 4 GB's of RAM loaded with the 3GB USERVA boot.ini modification. That's it.

I totally hear you loud and clear and agree with you in principal. However, one tends to think differently when it's their own $5000 their plunking down, and asks what they're really buying, and if they really want it. In my case, I have (humbly) finally gotten to the point with my Catia, my computers, my set-up and organization, where things run pretty darn smooth! I don't even remember the last time I had a "click ok to terminate." I have no file-saving errors of any kind. I finally understand, to a large extent, how to use Catia how it is and be happy with it. I believe, that after many years, I finally have a firm understanding of the way that I want to use Catia, in the way that works out well for me. I also looked at history, and realized that even if I did go to say, R20- it would probably be around 5 or 6 service packs before it was useable. This being the case....I bought a new motorcycle. But seriously, I thought that $5000 would buy a lot of VB automation, and I have a man that can pretty much do anything I want, in the way of enhancements around where Catia is at today. What Catia can't do, I can do with APT. So...this was my logic. Hence, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" really refers more to MYSELF, and the WAY I use the software. I do find workarounds. I don't want any major changes to any of MY personal Catia, because I know how to use MY Catia. As for my comments about the enhancements that have been asked for lately...well...I haven't seen a single one that really got me excited, and seemed to be of much use to me. Rather, they would get in my way, and force me to have to do things differently, rewrite much automation, when TODAY, I have Catia working very well for me. Again, I think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

This applies only to ME, and my Catia. I use catia as a modeling, drafting, and aptsource generation tool, and it does the job well. I have many VB scripts which are only used to do things that are repetitive, or to do things that take a long time to do otherwise, or to do things which are prone to human error if not scripted. None of my VB scripts, or use of formula's would hinder a person from using my source data, if they didn't have access to my scripts or catalogs.

Anyhow, it's been a long time process of getting myself set-up. One thing that really pushed me is that I have around 35 customers, all of which have quite different methods and systems. I had to make my Catia work around that, which was quite difficult, as you can imagine! Every shop must feel like they are my only customer, and I need to appear as if I have their entire methodology firmly embedded in my brain. I set up a system here that is similar to the U.S. constitution, and wrote it all down. I have never given this to anyone, but I have a scaled down version, which I give to some of my sub-contractors. So...another reason, why I look very closely at major changes to Catia.

On another important point, personally, I don't drink much beer. But...I do drink whisky just about every night. 95% of the time, it's Wild Turkey Bourbon- but in the last couple months, I've gotten to enjoy Wild Turkey Rye. It's 101 proof, and follows my general principal of getting the most for your money.

Here's a hot tip for you, and what I usually do. 2 ice cubes in a small old-fashioned glass. Dash Angustura over the rocks. Drop 1 sugar cube in there. Splash about a teaspoon or so of club-soda or tap-water in there. Mash up the sugar. Pour 1.5 ounces of Whisky in there. Take one small lemon slice, squeeze it in, and drop the sucker in there.

P.S. If, a release does come out in the next 10 years that I just "have" to have, I only have to pay $7500 (150% of fee) and I'd have it. So, if that happens in 2 years, I still save $2500. Add $5000 saved for each year after that. This was probably the biggest factor in my decision. At worst, if I needed to have R20 in 2010, I'd lose $2500. At best, I'd save that or more. Also, I will still be around COE, sharing knowledge, even if I'm way below you guys in my release level, because my most important interest is in methods, not the actual software.

Take care,

Shane Long

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
BTW, i didnt say what was in the keg........ "Barrel Proof" Whiskey = Good times for all! (until the next morning)
Thanks for the recipe im going to definately give that a taste!
I am traditionally a Tequila man but I like a good scotch every now and again....

Thanks for your follow up, and I completely get it as I was a contractor for many years.

Have a great holiday season!

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Looks like Sam is out. Tequila, scotch or cognac please

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
HIJACK/ON
SYN/ALCOOL,DRUNK

I love Tequila, but it's just so dang expensive for good stuff. Cuervo is just nasty...but I had it once frozen to a slushy consistency and it wasn't bad. I think Cazadores is pretty good for a decent price. Tu sais un bon tequila pas trop cher?

Here's another mix, I like with Tequila (but it works good with Whiskey- basically like a Whisky sour, but I use agave syrup instead of sugar). It would probably be good with Gin, too. Speaking of which, I need to get to the store and buy some gin...what's a good brand of gin, that's not too expensive?

In a shaker, put ice cubes, 2 ounces of Tequila, squeeze half a lemon (or lime) and Agave Syrup (you can get it at trader joes- it's basically a sugar substitute, but I like it since it's made from Agave just like Tequila, and it mixes with liquid easier than sugar). That's it- just shake it up and strain into a cold glass. This is so smooth, you can drink it like water...so watch out. Just 3 of these is like drinking a six-pack, and you could knock these down fast, since the sugar and lemon hide the strength of the alcohol. Even my girlfriend could slam these.

Richard Perlman

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I hardly know anything about NC machining, but I love reading the stuff you guys share. I wonder if y'all can create a skit that you could perform at the closing ceremonies of the April 2010 COE. I'm thinking it would be kinda like Cheers or Barney Miller except in catia mfg context. Hmmm, a frightening thought, never mind. LOL.

Steve Beach

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Oh, I would LOVE to be a part of that skit ........as long as I had immunity in writing.

P.S. Still hoping to be ABLE to attend Las Vegas COE........fingers crossed.

Cmonnnnnnn Boeing.......FLY THE DAMN PLANE !!!!!!

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
No @#$%. Fly the damn thing already!!! I'm just one guy sitting on enough quotes to last me 2-3 years solid, if only they'd pull the damn trigger!!! I can only imagine how much you guys will have!!!

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Rich,

Believe it or not, a few of us have actually thought of doing something for the COE opening. You know who you are.

The way this thread is going perhaps we can open a new Manufacturing Forum called the "Lounge for Manufacturing Spirits". I too have been enjoying all the topics being discussed. Nice work boys. Keep it going. Personally, I prefer Dewars. Since we'll be in Vegas, we should try to come up with a special manufacturing concoction to imbibe in. Something like the "Stagger Tooth Slam", "T-Slotter" or as such. Get thinking.

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Oh, This is going to be great............

You know who you are.
I have my list....... ROFLMAO

"Lounge for Manufacturing Spirits"


More like,
"Spirited Lounge for MFG Grammers."

I think it could get very interesting in there. For sure.

Mr. Perlman? Balls in your court now. You have work to do. Lol.

Shane Long

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Since my personal favorite has already been mentioned i Propose this new "concoction"

The Spanish Inquisition

A white russian except substitute Vodka with Tequila.....lol

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hijack / on, continue

We can meet at the Lounge for Spirited MFG heads.

I recomend the Lounge at the 64th floor at THE HOTEL.... What a view, with indoor and outside seating, so we can light up and Partagás #10, and pretend to inhale.

If............ I go. Today its NO
Dave

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
but heck, it's a 45 min flight from beautiful downtown burbank.
Crashing parties is the rage these days. Just as Mr President.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
The Spanish Inquisition
I used to bring my grandmother to Mexico and she drank Taquila mixed with Kahlua.

I like Taquila and grapefruit juice. It's similer to my favorite Margarita which is Taquila, lots of lime and a little triple sec. Salted rim on hot days.

It's almost noon on the east coast. lol

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Funny thing is, from most hated, this has become my most favorite thread. You guys really know how to make the best of a bad thing.

Would anyone here think it's a bad thing that my 10 year old son knows how to make the best Whisky Old-fashioned around. He saw me making them, figured out how to do it, and has been making me one just about every night...I told him not to tell anyone... Last night, he tried a new experimental non-alcoholic drink for himself, and I castigated him for ten minutes about how his new drink was a complete disaster, abhorrent to the art of bartending, and how many years from now will be considered one of his early failures. Oh well...it was nasty!!! Simplicity...I told him...simplicity is the key!

I think I will have to make Las Vegas 2010. Not for the conference, but mainly for the games and drinking! I was afraid to go (joking), actually, because gambling used to be another of my vices...I was afraid I wouldn't be able to leave the craps tables, but last year, I did leave a winner of a whopping $80 after my girlfriend and her visiting family from France pried my cold, numb, sweaty hands from the table. C'est pas grave! Calme toi!!! I replied, to no avail. I hope some of you guys will also join me at the tables. We could all start with $100 and have a side bet that whoever wins the most money in a craps session gets chips from the rest of us up to a split total of $100...something like that would be fun. Or maybe, big winner buys dinner...I really only play craps, but I used to play $6/$12 stud 4 times a week until I realized I was making less than minimum wage for many hours at the tables. Then I played hold-em, and did just okay after loosing for a year (investment in the future!), I learned to win a little bit of money, until it got huge on TV, all the players become better, and I couldn't win anymore with confidence. Now, I only play small buy-in tournaments, and just try to place top 3, which usually only earns a few bucks...

Any other gamblers here, since we obviously already have a bunch of drunks?

Shane Long

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Isnt one the symptom of another? lol

Canada has black listed me after I took out a total of 20k from a windsor Casino....started with $100.00 HAHAHAHA take that ya stinkin hosers!!

I am a huge Craps/BlackJack guy...

Shane Long

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
OH wait...to be true to the original post, the winner should pay everyones maintenance...ROFL

OR

The losers could pay for the winners maintenance......

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hijack / on, yeah baby, then, off

The first time I went to Vegas, I was 21, a few months after move to LA from Hotlanta, where I lived 2 years. I grew up in Springfield New Jersey, 20 miles from Giant Stadium, and Yes I do see Pele play many times, for the Cosmos.Never the Giants. Season tickets are usually willed to the next generation. I don't know how Steve Beach got in.

Anyway, I brought , I don't know, like 500$, and went from casino to casio with a 30$ l self inflicted loose limit. So, loosing and loosing. I mean like 5$ table, loose 6 hands in a row, and say skrew this, leave that casino and go to another. Same crap. Blackjack actually. so after 6or 8 casinos and down 2-300$, we just checked into the Dunes, and I just walked around, checked out the entertainment, etc.

SO, at ten pm I wend into the dunes casino floor, whipped out a hundred, said F@& it, got 20 5's and said OK, when this is gone I am done. 12 hour later, I needed to be carried up the room, with my 3000K winnings. I could not loose. I was double downing with 17 and drawing a 4. I was sticking with a pare of deuces, and the dealer would bust. The dealer clapped the signal to get the pit boss over. go goes " this gentlemen wants to double down with 17 and has 200$ out there" the pit boss says, " If he is that stupid, let hit" . the pit boss looks at me says take the 2 black chips, and put them on top on the cards, and point you index finger signal one, for the cameras.

The were bringing me jack and cokes every 10 minutes. I had a mountain of red and green chips in front of me and I would not let the dealers change them in. HEY I SAID, DON'T TOUGH MY CHIPS. It seemed like the madder the were, the more I would win.

I was jinxing the dealers when I did crazy stuff, by crossing my 2 index finger, like Voodoo. and the dealer would bust. When the dealer would bust. everyone on the table would win. Once the players saw what I was doing to them ( dealers), they started to go for the ride, sit pat with nothing. I would do the voodoo finger, yell busto, the dealer would bust. Every one would be screaming and high fiveing. A crowd drew around the table. it was wild.

I was sometimes playing 3 hands. some the minimum bet, which is 5* the table minimum or 25 when you play 4 hands, or 3 black chips, on there hands. Oh and I was tipping by playing chips on the dealer line next to my chips, Crap I probably tipped a thousand dollars.

Ad of coarse, playing big like that, when the luck turns on you, you can loose thousands in half an hour. But I had 3 K set aside, and like I said, needed to be carried up the room, with my 3000K winnings.


Dave

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
HIJACK / OFF, clean and sober

Not to be the party pooper, if you DO get to go to COE, my advice is, go a few days early, and get the Vegas out of you system.

You will want to be clean and sober, well rested as could be. The COE agenda is packed and you want to remember it. The evening networking activities to create collaboration alliances, should out trump the party instinct.

And as you guys have seen from the pictures you have seen from my 50th birthday party, you know I work hard, and play hard. Plan extra time so it does not interfere with why you are at Vegas, this time.

jm6c
Best as always
Dave


Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
lol, yer just saying that in case your boss is listening.

Truth is, I didn't drink much in Seattle. I didn't notice anyone drinking much. Tho I did use the drink ticket Steve gave me.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By ROGER_BOMBASSEI on 03 Dec 2009 01:21 PM

lol, yer just saying that in case your boss is listening.

Truth is, I didn't drink much in Seattle. I didn't notice anyone drinking much. Tho I did use the drink ticket Steve gave me.



Hey, I never lie. That way, people know they can trust me.

just to prove i did not say that cause the boss is listening:

My boss is an idiot...... He is ignorant actually. He thinks COE is a waste of time, but never read my trip report. He says I am never going to COE again. I am pretty sad about it. I will probably pay for the COE AMC myself, for the 1st time in a few years, just as id did the firt few. But Hey, its worth it, if anyone knows that, I do.

The boss loved my COE participation, and supported it. but it's a strange set of times and tribulations. there is the go with what you know attitute.

I say leveraging the software, is the way out of the abyss

Last year the OWNER overruled boss #5, and sent me to COE. So if the boss is listening, I may need your advice on being a contractor. Ho Ho Ho.

Hey, it's a machine shop.

Gotta go. Hey you should see the Machine for simulation I am building............

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
lol, I hope your boss isn't listening.
By the way, anybody that doesn't want to waste a good drink ticket, I'm the biggest ugliest longhair in the place.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Not what I heard.
Remember that hot Dassault demo Babe.
She asked me who was my friend with the dreamy long hair
but then, the guy with the tatoos all over took priority
Sorry
Misseed it by that much.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
And by the way, I had some wine also, but I paced.
I saw some others that did not pace, and they were easy to spot.

Hey, in all seriousness, you chucked out your own hard earned dough, and went to your first COE Annual conference. An Richard Bulken, he called me before to say it was too much money, and I told rich, I gaurentee you will get your moneys worth out if it. After the conference, he thanked me so I know where he is at

Roger, I the boss does look at ths one day, well, I'd appreciate you stating what you got out of it.

a nice professional trip report.

That would help me a lot
I can slrup it out of here and send it to him.

do that and I'll owe you one.

Do you know what 68 is?
you do me and ........

(said to a woman thank you)

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
The most valuable thing I got out of COE conference was inspiration that I've been building on since. The people that put on the presentations spent a lot of time trying to share ideas that the average CATIA user might not ever come accross.
It is also very cool to meet some of the CATIA mega power users.
And to hear about the future of CATIA and COE.

Speaking of mega power users, Richard and I ran into Phil Harrison at Ruby Tuesday here in CT one evening. I recognised his name at the time, but didn't realize how involved he is with COE until afterward.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Thanks roger
Yes, Picking the brains from the best.

Steve Beach, Deepak, Joe, all of them.

From COE, you get to see what you should be doing. and get confidence that if you run, you are in the right direction, and move closer rather than farther away. Hmmm I like that.

ps I had a nice talk with Phil at the Technifair, over a glass of white wine, among many others.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Speaking of Liquor, anyone ever drink a YARD of beer?, if even know what that is.
An if yes, did you get your face washed?
Dave

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Times up
Here you go
I have a few of theses glasses.
Have a great weekend folks

I may be heading up to Vandenberg for another launch

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I was hoping for a cubic yard.

COE Administrator

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Takes Off

http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=232680&wnnvz=1750,2466405

The moment you've all been waiting for..........
It flies!!!

EVERETT, Wash. (AP) -- Boeing Co.'s new 787 jetliner finally took to the skies Tuesday, more than two years later than the company had planned.

Pilots Michael Carriker and Randall Neville lifted off in the big blue and white jet shortly after 10 a.m. PST from Everett's Paine Field on a four-hour flight over Washington state, beginning the extensive flight test program needed to obtain the plane's Federal Aviation Administration certification...........

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I'll drink to that.
Dave

Philip Barna

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Raise our glasses, for this is a good step forward. Mr. Beach must be smiling as big as I am.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I am usually an optomist, but.... lets see if it lands

Steve Beach

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

This is just great news !!!
We ALL want this airplane to be successful !!
The world economy , the U.S. economy, and THE BEACH FAMILY economy NEEDS IT !!

This is the year they should have had the COE in Seattle........oh, actually, it should have been flying a LONG time ago, so last year SHOULD have worked......but either way .......
GOOD JOB BOEING !!!!

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
My programs made some of those parts.

Larry Crano

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Now maybe Boeing will collect up some of the inventory we have sitting around here!

Well done to all who have given blood sweat & tears on the 787 (we've got the ncaelles)

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Yay! Here's hoping for another busy year!

Dave King

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I got to see it take off... it was a very nice site to see it actually lift off the ground shadowed by the two T-33 chase planes. We all stood on the roof of one of our buildings just to get a look. Too bad the weather here sucked because they had to cut the 5 hour flight short but I saw on the local news that it actually did land. That's always a good thing.

Ole HOEG

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Great job guys. Finally we got something else to watch for but the A380 ...

Ole Hoeg

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Yes I think it is worth it…

What prompted me to post here in this thread is, We just recently hired 2 more programmers, and purchased 2 more CATIA MFG seats and one more design seat. This is even though we own 3 seats of NCL, that are usually idle, except for legacy files. It kind of offsets some of the older comments, that people were dropping CATIA for Brand X


I wish to explain some of my past comments

I do wish to explain my past comments , and passion on this thread since it has been written. We all have a stake in the cooperation from our good friends at Dassault. I had a concern, that this members area, provided by COE, and monitored by Dassault, could possible be closed if it got to hot in here.

As it turns out, the MFG COE members only forum, lives and flourishes. But there were still risks taken, in upsetting our friends that help us all. Just like when Michael Jackson held the baby out of the window. Just because he did not drop the baby, a huge risk was taken. That is what got me up in arms, in the past. Glad it turned out OK.

I have spent some time and grief, in trying to enlighten. But it is probably not me at all that that changed his mind, but just seeing what we all see, better software, more enhancements, etc.

I am glad that Samarinder, the author of this post, has a better attitude, opinion, outlook, in 2010. He has proven to be a great student of CATIA, and has put forward many good enhancements.

COE is actually the best place to submit these ER's

It is funny that part of the problems with not getting things fixed in a timely manner, in the beginning were business partners failures. I have heard quit a few stories recently, that the business partners suck at submitting enhancements and bugs, and that COE is actually the best place to submit these things.

We have a business partner now….. finally, but I will continue to put up ER's right here, because I think we all benefit from the visibility, of the status of the issues.

I would love to see Dassault recommend COE, as the first place to enter ER's, and bugs, because of this visibility. It saves so much time to see the posts and know it is handled by the DPC, and other do not need to waste there valuable time documenting something that is already fixed, in the next release.

Good evening
Dave

Roger Bombassei

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Is that the late MJ?

I paid my maintenance. It is worth it.
Good to know I have options if I'm ever struggling tho.

Dave Frank

RE: Catia Maintenance, Is it worth it?
(in response to Samarinder Singh)



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

First off, I want to thank DS for paying lots of attention to NC MFG recently and adding some new bells and whistles although competition had such feature for years.

My Boss wants to know a few things such as

*Why is it taking so long to fix some existing bugs?
*Why are machining processes not working as intended?
*Why is there so much wasted time in workarounds?
*Why is there a need of importing aptsource from other CAM systems for the some machining op which can’t be done inside Catia?
*Why are we paying so much for maintenance and things aren't getting fixed in due time?

I tell him to start using something else but then again that doesn’t solve the problems we are having with Catia MFG and also it is required for us to use Catia.

 

Well, it has been 5 years since Samarinder Singh ask this question. ... almost to the day.   You know... I gave everyone a bit of heartburn, on this thread, but is is still on people mind.

  • Are the bugs we complained about 5 years ago all repaired to your satisfaction?
  • Are machining processes not working as intended now?
  • Are you spending less time on workarounds?
  • Are you satisfiled with the Concentric roughing... so 3rd part roughing routines are no longer required?
  • Do you think things reported, are fixed in a timely manner?
  • 

How happy are you with the overall product?    How do you measure if it is worth it?

I will tell you something............. I think Dassault should measure itself.... by customer satisfaction.  Not just profits and Marketshare.

I think there are lots of important enhancments we have asked for ....that we still do not have.

But yes.....our freinds do try to support us. And we see, ..( I hope) we see progress. Because I see lots of progress.  But ... are they focused on the right things? Is it going fast enough? Should not many of the origonal request be done by now?

 

I hear more and more, from you, and also......from some top contractors here.......that development on new and big things should stop, until the fundamentals are fixed and in place.

I also hear that, as stated in last years top ten, that many programmers are either stuck on V5, or have no incentive, to go to V6, and want more activity on V5.   The fundementals.

  • like right click center graph on alalyse geometry
  • Like a clearance sphere, and cylinder.
  • Like insert a macro, and the first entity in a macro
  • Like better documentation on VB
  • Like more recordable macros in the NC workbench...
  • the topic, on mafc, profile contouring... etc

 

What do you think?

Dave  

 


Dave Frank  *    Bell Helicopter *  Grand Prairie Texas

Advanced Computer Aided Manufacturing Systems Engineer

COE Product Co-Chairman, Digital Numerical Control