Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs

Samarinder Singh

Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
Hi All,

Here is a topic in the open forum where ut got over 200 hits after I posted this video clip. I thought I put it here so it can be discussed candidly.


Attachments

  • Smooth_Roughing1.zip (426.8k)
  • High_Speed_Smooth_Roughing_3-sided_Open-Pocket.zip (1765.9k)

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
The toolpath motion looks very good in the video.

Having the ability to make these kinds of paths and power-copies is what gives one programmer/shop a huge advantage over another programmer/shop.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder is #1

Alex Smygov

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I like that...

That type of pocketing routine called Engagement Milling developed by Surfware, Inc. for SurfCAM in their plug-in TrueMill... in 2004 Developers of TrueMill later left the Surfware company to start their own called Volumill in 2007, they also improved Engagement Milling with better feedrate control to maintain Volume Removal Rate as well as technique of reliving material where transition between passes takes place prior to machining the pocket as well as side milling and slotting improvements over TrueMill.

Included are some calculations for Engagement Milling that Surfware tried to Patent and actually succeeded in couple claim paragraphs.... Some cool formulas and drawings from USPTO.

I want this type of motion in CATIA very much. If this type of routines are in Catia I would rough any material utilizing that type of Methodology only... Until something better is developed.

Take a look at these attachments.
Attachments

  • TrueMill_Engagement_Milling.zip (4813.7k)
  • VoluMill_Transition.pdf (105.4k)

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I am looking at the Videos
I will make some comments on all soon.

Dave

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Thanks for the Kudos and replies.

I thought I'd let you know a short story of this idea. I was working in Surfware back in 1999 as a quality assurance tester for SurfCam. My job was to catch the bugs before they were found by customers. One day I thought of this idea and asked one of their guys. "What if we cut the part with circular motions and control the feedrate depending the cutter is on outside of the arc or inside the arc." The gentleman standing next to me simply said, "We'll think about it." You know the rest form Alex's post.

I always had this in my mind but I wasn't able do something about it until Cliff Johnson and Lasse Purma helped me with power-copies. So in last 2 years I learned a lot about powercopies and finally I am able to do what I want to do for this type of motion.

Now I am working to develop these routines for odd shapes where walls are canted and pockets with islands/check surfaces such as clamps etc..

I don't know how to do this in c++ or in any other language yet. But I'll hire someone who knows such languages. Or better wait for Catia developers to do it inside Catia because I have already sent this idea to them as well.



After creating curves with power-copies, the tool motion is created with Multi-Axis Curve Machining (MACM). However this MACM needs to be fixed for axial macros between levels. Right now it doesn't work properly to cut multiple levels. And I have already sent the files to DS. Hopefully it will be fixed in next SP or so.

Best Regards,
Samarinder Singh
CUTPATH
Attachments

  • SmoothRoughingPowerCopies1.png (67.6k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Roger,

Thanks for the compliment. I simply observe, learn and try to implement. But I dont think I am #1.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Well, I don't usually like to boast but since you made me, I am #1 you can be 2. It is fantastic that you can make your motion like that. And it sounds like you are automating it too. Now just add optipath type feed control and you'll be set.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
WTF.. Pardon my language.

Surfware put lots of BS I just read some of it from the attachments from the Alex' post. They were crying hard to claim that simple mathematics as their own. LOL

It is simple that you create tritangent arc by using some trigonometry which I studied in high scool back in India. Now Surfware should file a claim against Indian education system. What type of greedy morons. No wonder these Developers left them behind and started their own Volumill. They are cheap and I was making $11/hr on 1099. So I left them too.

2 x 2 = 4
Is there any patent for it?

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Your an expert on Patent law...... huhhhhhhhhhhhhh


J/K..... ROFLMFAO


But, I agree in content.... Like can you patent the stearing wheel?

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 06 Jul 2011 03:21 PM
Well, I don't usually like to boast but since you made me, I am #1 you can be 2. It is fantastic that you can make your motion like that. And it sounds like you are automating it too. Now just add optipath type feed control and you'll be set.


you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are my number 1..........and I ............................................


The Joker.



PS if you did not see Batman...1 that makes no sence

Philip Barna

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By DFRANK on 06 Jul 2011 03:41 PM
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Your an expert on Patent law...... huhhhhhhhhhhhhh


J/K..... ROFLMFAO


But, I agree in content.... Like can you patent the stearing wheel?


Oh I know.... :raising hand and waving: How about this. Patent "regressions". Then DS will not be able to have them if someone else has the patent. Or maybe I spoke too soon and DS DOES have that patent. ROFLMAO! Sorry Dave..... I'll go sit in the corner now.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Roger,

Only automation is geometry creation by using powercopies. And you can see in the image above I use 3 powercopies for it and 1 for spiral entry depending if I want to do shoulder milling only.

Then instantiation of a stored MP with formulas tagged to read the Cutter-diameter and use it for App/Ret macros in lead-in lead-out.

All of this can be written in a one nice MO which can serve all kind of roughing needs for NC-programmers. And it can complement existing Pocketing MO, Roughing MO. And some of these techniques can be implement inside Profile contouring MO.

I showed to my machinists and General Manager who used be an APT programmer and they love this motion. We are cutting parts with as we speak. Nobody liked new Concentric/Morphing. Well..l I'll try to utilize this if I can.

However I asked for concentric style toolpath for in sequential groove milling MO. Which is used by very few people. Concentric toolpath style is must have option for that Grove milling MO. Once I brought this in Mark's attention a few year back. I have a powercopy for that too. And that is the only place where concentric shines and I don't know why Dave pushed it so hard for roughing MO unless he is using it in his shop for some parts.

One of my friend worked with VoluMill add on for UG and he uses NX UG at his company. They tested back and forth on the real production part in order to fine tune the tool motions. I hope Dave did the same for concentric and morphing routines.

Also you can see the VoluMill creates an extra channel in the pocket in one of the documents attached by Alex. But creating your own geometry gives you the full control over that.

m2c

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Back to the topic. Now I would like to see if DS is willing to add such routines in next releases patent or no patent. Hopefully without charging extra to the customer. So everybody can have it inside AM2 package.

ps I have already filed the patent for it...hmmmmmmmmm

Alex Smygov

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
"Also you can see the VoluMill creates an extra channel in the pocket in one of the documents attached by Alex. But creating your own geometry gives you the full control over that."

That extra channel made there to relive material where radial transition between passes takes place... It is really useful for not overloading the cutter on transition, especially in hard metals when cutting at high speeds and feeds... Can vouch for it already tested, could not understand the purpose of it originally as well, now I do.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Start with Spiral entry after drilling a hole with indexable drill. As I mentioned earlier that my friend tested it hard for UG add-on he burned lot of cutter while ramping into the material. There is no such rocket science here. I am doing it while cutting titanium parts for section-46 of 787 at my company and removing some 400lbs of material. Roughers lasting more than 20 hours into the cut before we decide to change them.

And DS nailed the helical/spiral enrty in their new pocketing routines where you can center the helices on any given point. And you can control the entry feedrate for spiral entry which not labled properply as I suggested in order to make more user friendly but it does the job.

"Percentage of machining feedrate"

I don remember exact words of my suggestion but it was something like this "Entry feedrate for the Spiral Entry"

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By SAMARINDER on 06 Jul 2011 02:38 PM
Thanks for the Kudos and replies.

I thought I'd let you know a short story of this idea. I was working in Surfware back in 1999 as a quality assurance tester for SurfCam. My job was to catch the bugs before they were found by customers. One day I thought of this idea and asked one of their guys. "What if we cut the part with circular motions and control the feedrate depending the cutter is on outside of the arc or inside the arc." The gentleman standing next to me simply said, "We'll think about it." You know the rest form Alex's post.

I always had this in my mind but I wasn't able do something about it until Cliff Johnson and Lasse Purma helped me with power-copies. So in last 2 years I learned a lot about powercopies and finally I am able to do what I want to do for this type of motion.

Now I am working to develop these routines for odd shapes where walls are canted and pockets with islands/check surfaces such as clamps etc..

I don't know how to do this in c++ or in any other language yet. But I'll hire someone who knows such languages. Or better wait for Catia developers to do it inside Catia because I have already sent this idea to them as well.



After creating curves with power-copies, the tool motion is created with Multi-Axis Curve Machining (MACM). However this MACM needs to be fixed for axial macros between levels. Right now it doesn't work properly to cut multiple levels. And I have already sent the files to DS. Hopefully it will be fixed in next SP or so.

Best Regards,
Samarinder Singh
CUTPATH

Hi Samarinder.

 

I see you have very high competence in geometry creation, power copies, and understand what good roughing looks like.  Two Thumbs up!

 

This is similar to concentric with a few glaring differences, such as the tro-chordal motion in the beginning to make oval shapes rather then concentric…..

 

Dave


Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi Friends,

 

For all users……… Try R21 and report.

 

Before anyone  Poo Poo's it, ……..I want to ask you all a question…. HAVE YOU TRIED THE CATIA CONCENTRIC Roughing????

 

I say that because DS put forth mucho development resources into optimizing that and getting rid of the documented bugs, and even went further and added the moon crescent like motion. Daniel Pyzak told me at COE, that the moon crescent roughing was tested in machine shops in Europe, and the users really liked it.

 

I think concentric can still be improved on, and I have been told not everything is in the initial GA release. Some things will be in sp's but what I saw was pretty good.

 

Now if I was Patrick Touron, I would be thinking try the new stuff PLEASE!!! Try concentric. Try the new Morphing, and report back.

 

Continue this discussion

 

That being said, I still encourage all to continue this discussion. Roughing is very important to Dassault, and if R21 does not solve all the material machine shape requirements, there is more work to do.  Elucidate and document  the differences between what we have with the CATIA we have today, and what you require.

 

My attitude is

 

1.Get the best motion techniques

2. If other software does some things better, ( NCL UG MC), lets take what is so good about it and request it be in CATIA.

3. As little need for geometry creation. ( Yes, power copy skills give you an edge)

4. Many shy away from VB, so just put it in CATIA.

 

So… comments on Valu-mill,

 

I want to hear more about it, and see real, easy to see differentials.

I have had some conversations with Alex, on Valu-mill. Alex is a smart guy, along with others I see using it, so I want to understand it more.

 

………….. I really like concentric for pocketing with .7 radial stepovers high horsepower,  and moderate speeds.

 

 

Comments on Morphing.

 

I suggest to the developers, that Morphing will require volumetric feedrate control to be efficient, since the volumetric metal removal rates are not constant.

 

Irregular shapes and external non pocketing roughing.

 

I created a pretty bizarre looking part I imagined after taking LSD,  roughed it out, and sent the process to Dassault about 8 months ago. making good motion for that will be a challenge. I think some of the Valu-mill concepts will be good for that.

 

Keep it coming.

 

Dave

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Ok Dave you can be #2. Sorry Samarinder

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
HuH?

I guess you missed batman. Not what I was looking for
Just poking.

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I am movie and tv ignorant. Good to know you were poking tho.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Roger,
No problem.

Dave,
Here is what I have is for Concentric which is entirely different from Follow Boundary with traditional offsets using large corner rounds and then picking the corners at the end. And I named it Smooth Roughing with Follow Boundary option.

Concentric Style, I call it Circular Milling since tool motion is done by circles and these circle are never concentric in any way in mathematical definition. But we have it already in R21 now inside pocketing routines.
Which is only good for closed pockets. Thanks to you for pursuing it.

But this toolpath style is a must have option inside "Sequential Groove" MO in axial operations. It has only two options now one is Circular which is good for finish only. And other is Helical which doesn't make sense to me. And I have posted some topics about it ever since it came out back in R18 I believe. Mark and Jim are aware of what I am talking about.

Anyway back to this topic here is the image of Smooth Roughing with Concentric/Circular Milling option.


Attachments

  • SmoothRoughingPowerCopies2.png (66.3k)

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Samarinder is going to be a rich man someday.

Nicolas Denis

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Hey Samarinder,

as you mention going to C++ for your stuff, if you decide to follow that path here are two libraries that may help you :

http://www.opencascade.org : it's an opensource 3D modeling kernel, it comes from Euclid that was a Catia competitor back in the 90's

http://qt.nokia.com : well known UI framework, but also COM client/server, ie, all you can do in VBA can be done in C++ with Qt

Philip Barna

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 06 Jul 2011 05:07 PM
Samarinder is going to be a rich man someday.


Yes he will........ And is, with the plethora of knowledge he has. :cheers:

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 06 Jul 2011 04:54 PM
I am movie and tv ignorant. Good to know you were poking tho.


Hek, not even close. I don't program in CATIA enough to be as good as you guys.  I was up there in NCL. I like to think I am up there with Posts. I know I am up there with Vericut and Machine simulation.

And I know how to cut metal. So If I can not do what I want in CATIA, I can write up enhancments.... and I think I do that very effectively.

I am now getting my arms around these fancy roughing roughing and nothing but roughing routines.

Dave

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Once you get roughing down, finishing is easy.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Nicolas,
Thanks for the info. I'll look into it.

Roger, Phil
If I hit a loto then it will be definitely some fun.. I'll put all the good stuff I learned from other systems in one.
Dreaming... Back to work now.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
OK folks. Back to the topic.

It has been confirmed that this tool motion will be available very soon.(Sorry cant say much but it could be this year)

And I am still working with my VAR to get a beta version because I want to test it real good. So stay tuned.

Big thanks to DS developing team for this news and special thanks to all forum contributors and Dave Frank.

DS is listening and delivering.

Best Regards,
Samarinder Singh Cheema

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
I think Samarinder would be a great beta tester. He selflessly spends many hours of his own time seriously digging through everything (and I mean everything) for FREE!!!!!!

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 13 Jul 2011 09:14 AM
I think Samarinder would be a great beta tester. He selflessly spends many hours of his own time seriously digging through everything (and I mean everything) for FREE!!!!!!

I just want to play with it before others get it. In doing so I might find a few things and give my feedback to DS.

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)
Posted By SAMARINDER on 13 Jul 2011 09:10 AM
OK folks. Back to the topic.

It has been confirmed that this tool motion will be available very soon.(Sorry cant say much but it could be this year)

Excelent!!!!    It is probably done, and they are testing. I assume a LA limited availabily might be coming...

And I am still working with my VAR to get a beta version because I want to test it real good. So stay tuned.

While you are on the phone, please Ask if they Beta SP's or only Releases

Big thanks to DS developing team for this news and special thanks to all forum contributors and Dave Frank.

Yes, thanks to you and DS

DS is listening and delivering.

Music to my ears. I have been saying that over and over. To hear it from others show progress

Best Regards,
Samarinder Singh Cheema


Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi,

I think this area is far more important than any other enhancement in any cam system because it shows the difference in the productivity on the floor.

Recently I tried new V5R21 pocketing with concentric strategy but I chose "Mastercam X5 dynamic mill" for cutting. And no "Voulmill" this time because it doesnt give you enough user control for the feedrate management.

Also I used my contour driven technique in another part.

Attachments

  • PocketingConcentric1.pptx (415.9k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

It needs some serious improvement.

Attachments

  • ConcentricRoughingImprovement1.pptx (269.5k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi,

I am having a trouble with concentric toolpath where it outputs too many rapid moves.

Attachments

  • ConcentricRoughing1.pptx (309.2k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

I am very diasappointed and frustrated with Catia's automatic routines for roughing.

Catia roughing is nowhere near to its competitors and my company's general manager was asking my opinion about some cam packages for roughing. And I told him to look into UG.

I am working on a couple of projects and I am finding that Catia is produicng junk tool motion for one simple prismatic part and it is gouging and going thru walls. I ended up using regular pocketing, mafc, profile contouring MOs.

:(

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Here is small comparison among different strategies and roughing motion from MCX.

Thanks,

Samarinder

Attachments

  • RoughingImprovements1.pptx (383.4k)

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi Samarinder,

Interesting images. I would like to hear your comments about them. I know a lot of folks use Pocketing, and other methods to get more control of the motion for roughing parts.

What I like about the automatic roughing is, you don’t have to make all these sketches on 5-axis parts, to keep from undercutting walls, Roughing takes that into consideration.

Actionable enhancements require documenting specific issues and solutions, with real shapes. I do not expect it to work for all shapes, but supplying Dassault with problem shapes, and desired motion requirements, can help get DS pointed down the right path.

We are fortunate that Dassault does listen to us, and Dassault does understand we have expertise that comes from working in real machine shops on real parts.

You should consider yourself lucky, that you have the choice to "choose your weapon", when tackling a part. You have CATIA, UG VOLUMILL MASTERCAM, AND perhaps also NCL?

We should chat about this. I would like to hear your comments about what we can advise DS to do.

Best Regards

Dave

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi Dave,

Thanks for looking into it. Currently I am working 100+ hours a week. And at the same time I try to document such things with taking snapshots only. Regarding the choice of weapon for tackling the part I no longer have some of the tools you mentioned because they were only available at my last job.

Even if I have access to them, I would still prefer to do the whole thing inside Catia only.

Thanks,

Samarinder

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

The concentric routine looks like junk...Mastercam looks just okay.  The best looking is the MAFC, and that is how I would rough out a pocket like this anyways.  I probably don't use automatic roughing nearly as often as many guys do.  I do most stuff with MAFC, Profiling, Pocketing.  Probably, also why I don't have as many frustrations or desires for enhancements!

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Bryan Carpio Felsher)

I have to use Roughing with "Helical" only and turn all RAPID into max feedrate of machine when posting aptsource. But in this case optimize retract is not working. :(

Thanks,

Samarinder

Attachments

  • Optimize_Retract1.pptx (194.1k)

Don Javier

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

I would like to make one request for roughing and pocketing. With HSM selected can we have an option to just swing a radius instead of the "bubble" motion? I know there are times when the motion needs to do this but not every time. If there currently is a way, please let me know.

I have been asked several times if I could swing a radius without the extra motion.

 

Thanks,

Don

Attachments

  • Toolpath.jpg (36.3k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Don Javier)



In Reply to Don Javier:

I would like to make one request for roughing and pocketing. With HSM selected can we have an option to just swing a radius instead of the "bubble" motion? I know there are times when the motion needs to do this but not every time. If there currently is a way, please let me know.

I have been asked several times if I could swing a radius without the extra motion.

 

Thanks,

Don

 

Hi Don,

For this they have to rewrite a complete new logic. I have demonstrated using powercopies by creating extra NC-geometry. A few days ago I showed this trick to Dave. I'll show this in presentation again including other power-copies.

Here is what I do with such pockets.

1. Create "parallel curve" inwards for the pocket.

2. Create another "parallel curve" parallel to curve created in step 1 with same amount but this time choose the round option and outwards

You'll get a very nice pocket boundary with rounded corners.

3. It will leave pocket corners heavy so you have to create "Corner" curves for such corners.

I have all the powercopies for that stuff. And I have sent all of them to DS.

One you start using corners then you wouldn't want to use regular prismatic rework areas because computing rework ares sometimes take a lot longer in large files.

There is no rocket science in it. That is exactly what volumill, surfcam, onecnc, etc.. have been doing for a few years. And it would be nice to if we have this inside Catia.

PS I am trying to develop a small application for it. Since I and my partner both work full-time on a day job so it would take longer to develop the code.

Thanks,
Samarinder

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi,

Has anybody seen this in pocketing with concentric or spiral strategies? Today I tried to use it first time for creating a finish pass on the outer boundary and I found that Catia R21sp3 doesn't honor Retract macro motion for the final retract.

I have already sent an email to VAR and hope they will get it fixed soon.

Thanks,
Samarinder
Attachments

  • ConcentricPocketing1.pot (414k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi,

I just took a glimpse on SP4 roughing and pocketing toolpaths and DS has completely implemented the idea I sent them in the power-copies. So there is absolutely no need to buy third party software at all. With a few more refinements in App/Ret Macro-managements such as linking, transitions etc.. It will become even better.

It is the biggest improvement in Catia machining operations. I can't wait to try it.

Thanks,
Samarinder

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

That's great Samarinder.  It does look a lot like your powercopy, and also like my Spiral powercopy- you probably remember when I posted it up a while back as a friendly challenge.  I think you were the only one who responded and duplicated the motion.  I use this type of motion very often.  It would be a heck of a lot easier to do it as an intrinsic function of Catia, than with powercopies.  I first started using this type of motion in Mastercam 15 years ago.  Remember "Morph Pocket"?  Cool stuff.  It is actually the most efficient way to cut certain shaped pockets, as you have a constant chip load.  Other times, it is not the most efficient, but it definitely has it's place and purpose.  I rough 99% of large bores this way, and most pockets.  As you know, there are ways to do this without the enhancement...but it is not nearly as easy.

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Bryan Carpio Felsher)

This new forum upgrade sucks really bad. I was trying to post a response and it got stuck. Please attached image. And too bad you cannot insert images inside your post as well. And you have to upload/download them and open them, then at same the time read the thread ... what a nonsense, counterproductive upgrade of this site.

Thanks,
Samarinder
Attachments

  • 3-29-2012 4-48-09 PM.png (26.9k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi All,

I really like the evolution in concentric roughing. And I communicated with them using 3d language (a tool-path guide-curves geometry made by power-copies)

I also looked at the videos and files I got from Dave. There needs to be a study done on these methods especially at entry and exit of each radial pass. With my method (which is available in sp4) the tool advances gradually and will produce a better cutting action vs Dave' suggestions where tool will reach the desired engagement in a short span which is only good for certain applications and requires extra spindle torque on the machine. However I like the straight-line tool-motion in the middle section. But it will be much more complex/challenging than what I am doing in term of mathematics.

Anyway this evolution is a proven method as I commented in other topic as well. At my workplace we are running 2inch roughers more than 24 hours on some 787 Titanium parts and taking some pretty deep cuts. I could have bought 4 seats of Voulmill if they had put my requested enhancements in it. Now I don't care since it will be all inside Catia.

Also I am thinking of utilizing Dave's method of straight tool-motion into my method if there is enough room for the tool-motion at the beginning of the open pocket. Because once the channel gets narrower then it has no existence and current evolution is better and sufficient.

Regardless of either method used, you have to produce some tool motion following the boundary in order to clean up the cusps left from previous passes. It is required at both entry and exit moves for every radial pass. But with current evolution you don't need to extend such motion at a great distance along the boundary for entry and exit since most of it is part of large circular arc. But then again Dave's method will be a specialty tool-motion for specific open pocketed area/shapes.

And the only way to find out the real results is to run a real test on the machine.

If I get a chance in the future then I will throw this type of tool motion in my programs and then compare the results. The good thing is that I can test any new methods on my workplace. But I only use such methods while making the tooling programs. Because nobody would like to try things in the production part programs unless it is planned ahead of time.

Bottom line is Catia will be far better (I mean better than any CAM package out there) for roughing strategies once a couple of more ideas get implemented.

Having said that I am not shooting down Dave's ideas/methods as I mentioned that I like the straight-line tool-motion in the middle section.

Anyway here is a recent correspondence between me and my contact at DS containing some comments related to this topic.

 

Hi Samarinder,

 

  • ________
  • ________
  • ________
  • I’m very glad to read you appreciate the concentric evolutions;

o   For macros, it’s very flexible to define the macros you want in Pocketing; in Roughing Concentric, you can define circular approach and retract (it will be applied to every radial pass), you can define the length of approach and retract feed rate during every linking motion with the help of approach distance parameter and you can choose to stay on bottom during the link if you define axial safety distance = 0.

o   I agree completely with your proposition to mix concentric and other strategies so as to reduce the cycle time. This will be one of our objectives for the coming weeks,

o   To use this concentric evolution ________

 

Thanks,

____.

 

From: Samarinder Singh
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 11:05 AM
To: ________
Subject: RE: ________

 

Hi ____,

 

Sorry for the late response as I have been working 6 days a week for last 3 months and  sometimes 7 days. I am working on very challenging and complex project. It has lots of features which are hard to reach with conventional methods so it offers to test all kind of 3-5axis MOs, machine simulator, and 90deg holders capabilities in Catia. Once I finish the project ,________

 

Regarding first question: All I meant to say that we cannot preserve the "Rank number" of the newly inserted drive surface if it doesn't belong to same belt of faces in a given solid or geometrical set.

Say we have drive surfaces ds1, ds2, ds3, ds4 from a Design part solid. And they have Rank numbers 1,2,3,4 respectively. Now I want to deselect drive-surface  ds2 and replace it by selecting a drive surface from NCgeometry geometrical set. It will end up as a last drive surface with Rank number 4 and all other Rank numbers will be changed before this drive surface. In other words it will not be inserted at the same place (Rank number) where we deselected the original drive surface. Please see attached video clip for this.

 

And I have attached file containing some screenshots for Rank numbers and labels' names for drive surfaces.

 

Also I made a discovery a few months ago about machining areas. I was surprised to find out that geometry-container for MAFC is present inside Catia since day one but it is not exposed to the user either as API or as machining area. I found all of them except for Isoparametric MO.

 

Also I noticed that R21sp3 has new machine kinematics checking features under part operation such as MfgCheckKinematic, MfgCheckKinematicMaxAngular

I would like to know if there are some other environment variables available to test this functionality.

 

I was talking to Dave yesterday and I got the files for Concentric strategy in Roughing and Pocketing MOs which is really fantastic. Now I don't have to create geometry with power-copies for small pocketed areas. I can't wait to install SP4 now. I would like to add few comments and suggestions for this.

  • I am not sure if there are any macro parameters exposed to control the approach and retract moves for every radial pass along with lift off distance. If not then it would be a nice option. Or is it based upon the Radial and Axial safety distances, approach distance and Optimize retract distance?
  • For large areas(long pocketed areas) it would generate many non cutting Rapid moves. So it would be nice if we can combine these strategies into some Mixed mode of concentric and helical. There are a few advantages in doing that
  • a) Cutter stays constantly in contact with material which results constant spindle load.
  • b) Better cutter life because of less fluctuation in the heat produced at the cutting edge of the tool.
  • c) Lesser non-cutting rapid moves produce a better cycle time and it reduces the wear and tear on the machine. It increases productivity.

 

Best Regards,

Samarinder

 

 

Thanks,
Samarinder

Roger Bombassei

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Good to see you guys are making progress.  And especially encouraging to hear Samarinder give a positive review.

I've been cutting a lot of hard metals lately and am starting a new job in a week where I hope to try out some of this new tool path on titanium.

Dave Frank

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

There needs to be a study done on these methods especially at entry and exit of each radial pass. With my method (which is available in sp4) the tool advances gradually and will produce a better cutting action vs Dave' suggestions where tool will reach the desired engagement in a short span which is only good for certain applications and requires extra spindle torque on the machine.

What I think is, DS should add control for the programmer to alter the engagment span radius and distance, and also feed. There are so many materials, and cutter types, and methodologies....... Some will use on low HP machines with 10 flute end mills and .030-050 radial stepovers. Others like us will use high HP machines, 4 flute cutters, and .800 radial steopvers. There will be Cobalt, and olid carbide, and poweered metal, and coated. I doubt one size fits all. 

However I like the straight-line tool-motion in the middle section. But it will be much more complex/challenging than what I am doing in term of mathematics.

Correct. Cutting with only circles, is easier math, and less point to point motion. I prefer faster cycle time and point to point motion, then slower times that come with all circles. So do several others. But I also know some would need circular for shorter tapes, and will live with longer cycle times.

Anyway this evolution is a proven method as I commented in other topic as wel. At my workplace we are running 2inch roughers more than 24 hours on some 787 Titanium parts and taking some pretty deep cuts.

Just a suggestion. If the cutter is lasting that long, you can probably dramaticly increase either the radial stepover, the feed, or some combination of both. My experience is.... tools last 45 minutes to 3 hours... depending on how agressive.

 I could have bought 4 seats of Voulmill if they had put my requested enhancements in it. Now I don't care since it will be all inside Catia.

Also I am thinking of utilizing Dave's method of straight tool-motion into my method if there is enough room for the tool-motion at the beginning of the open pocket. Because once the channel gets narrower then it has no existence and current evolution is better and sufficient.

Correct. Once the channel narrows to around 2.5 times the cutter diameter.. there is no choice but to use the crecent moon shape motion. You can see that in the 5 videos I posted on YouTube.

Regardless of either method used, you have to produce some tool motion following the boundary in order to clean up the cusps left from previous passes. It is required at both entry and exit moves for every radial pass. But with current evolution you don't need to extend such motion at a great distance along the boundary for entry and exit since most of it is part of large circular arc. But then again Dave's method will be a specialty tool-motion for specific open pocketed area/shapes.

Lets not forget we need cutter compensation on each pass.

And the only way to find out the real results is to run a real test on the machine.

If I get a chance in the future then I will throw this type of tool motion in my programs and then compare the results. The good thing is that I can test any new methods on my workplace. But I only use such methods while making the tooling programs.

Yes, testing will show the best scenario. Your results will vary. (like they say on TV comercials) As I said, DS should add control for the programmer to alter the engagment span radius and distance, and also feed. That way we can test different scenarios, and tweak it for best results.

Because nobody would like to try things in the production part programs unless it is planned ahead of time.

Bottom line is Catia will be far better (I mean better than any CAM package out there) for roughing strategies once a couple of more ideas get implemented.

Having said that I am not shooting down Dave's ideas/methods as I mentioned that I like the straight-line tool-motion in the middle section.

This is healty discussion. This is a complex issue. And not a one size fits all issue.

I hope DS allows we the programmers to control as many options as possible

Best Regards

Dave

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi,

I hate calling the "circle" as "crescent moon shape". I like to keep things simple and that's what we learned in mathematics such as Point, Line, Circle, etc...

Attached are some snapshots of tool-motion for roughing using basic shapes lines, and circles made by power-copies. Sometimes Roughing MOs are only good for small prototype work or it sometimes depends on the customer. I have one customer and he doesn't mind at all if tool is going up in the air thousand times for roughing. But I believe that it is always good to have a cleaner tool-motion especially for the large production quantities.

Next week I'll send these sample files to DS.

Thanks,
Samarinder
Attachments

  • RpughingEnhancements1.pptx (416.4k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: Enhancement for Roughing, Pocketing, Profile Contouring MOs
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi All,

Here is an update.

DS has made lots of progress in concentric strategy. I have provided them with a couple of more ideas and they agreed with me.

And here is some info from my emails

From: Samarinder Singh
Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: Concentric for open pockets
To:  Bruno


Hello Bruno,

Please find attached files where I made the tool-path for open and closed pockets. In real world I would rough this part with this type of motion for open and closed pocketing for hard metal roughing. I would start with drilling an entry hole for the closed pocket.

Also I noticed that pocketing doesn't honor the start point for helix entry in approach macro. If you pick a certain point then the center of helix doesn't follow that point.

Also we need to have a better macro management for the transitioning-moves between the radial passes. In other words tool can stay down as much as possible.

I left all the corners and one closed-pocket for you. :)

Thanks,
Samarinder


 

From: Bruno
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:08 AM
To: Samarinder Singh
Subject: RE: Concentric for open pockets

Hello Samarinder,

Thanks a lot for your feedback. I agree with your proposal and this is the way I want to go too.Now we have some work to implement and also to manage other cases more complex with several islands.I can’t stay very late this evening, so I will schedule our call on next Tuesday : we will have more time. I hope you be available.

Bruno.

 

Attached is a video clip for the tool-motion I made which took me a couple of hours to make cl-curves and then drive the geometry with a few MOs. I would present all this type of MOs with power-copies including some other ideas if I get to do the presentation at COE.

I call it high-speed-smooth-contouring(HSSC).

Regards,
Samarinder
Attachments

  • HSSC1.zip (423.5k)