Feedrate Enhancements, TOP TEN.

Dave Frank

Feedrate Enhancements, TOP TEN.

OK guys, this is my #1 priority.

 

Now that I am programming more, I can see that this just has to happen. CATIA is all about associatively, and links between the tools feeds, and MO's…………BUT !

 

If you NEED approach to be a cutting feed, and NEED a fast feed AND a RAPID for non cutting, it can not be accomplished with automatic compute from tooling speeds and feeds.

 

I have talked to several programmers, that are using local feedrates  and Rapids together in their approach macro.

 

Many programmers are using Approach  feedrates and retract feedrates, and FAST FEEDS…. 200, 400 IPM, because it is necessary based on their managers requirements.

 

We need to OBSOLETE LOCAL FEEDS, because there are NO LINKS with local feeds, and put all feeds needed to cut ANY part, on the cutter technology page.  The software needs to add more function so we can do that.


( Just keep it in the code for legacy programs)   

 

I think Dassault is assuming that all you need is machining feeds, and RAPID. The approach is intended to be a cutting feed entering the part. we know this because of the way roughing works. Approach and MUST be cutting feedrates.

 

I, and most programmer I know, will RAPID to, some safe Z level, and go the rest of the way down, at reduced feed, to not overshoot, and to not scare the crap out of the operator.

 

For sure, in pockets on older machines with older controls, that are still "good iron" the dogleg move makes RAPID unusable.  Many machines with Dogleg moves are still in use. "good iron" mean a good cutting old machine, with a very old control.

 

What say you????

Dave

Edited By:
Dave Frank[Bell Helicopter] @ Jun 27, 2013 - 05:07 PM (America/Pacific)

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Here is the powerpoint I made, showing ALL issues related to Feeds, and cutter technology.

Dave
Attachments

  • Feedrate+enhancment+requirements+9-2011.rar (2123k)

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
In order to down load the file, you must use firefox, and right click save link
Internet exploder will give you errors

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Here are Samarinders view of what the new interfaces could look like.
He put a lot of work into visualization, of this requirement.

Thanks
Dave









Attachments

  • 001_COE-ss-feedrates001.jpg (46.9k)
  • COE-ss-feedrates002.jpg (46.1k)

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I had trouble with PNG files

You can now see the images, as I converted them to JPG....take a look


Dave
46

Nicolas Denis

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I personnaly think one should be able to create its own feedrate list attached to a given tool. That way people who don't use many feedrates won't have to mess with a complicated user interface and others can control each and every machining case.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By NDENIS on 21 Sep 2011 02:25 PM
I personnaly think one should be able to create its own feedrate list attached to a given tool. That way people who don't use many feedrates won't have to mess with a complicated user interface and others can control each and every machining case.

Hi Nicolas,

 I think that is definitely one way to implement this.

 When I discussed this with the developer, my original thinking was to just add local feed on the cutter technology page, IE, Local 1, local 2, Local 3, and allow the user to put his own names and descriptors. He asked me "How many do you need?"  I was thinking 3. But Samarinders method is defiantly interesting.

 So once we get engage approach, and Fast air cutting approach, so the 2 are differentiated on the cutter technology page, and accessible with a right click when making macros, we can move on from there.

 I think each user here, can answer the question from the developer, ""How many do you need?"

 I like the feedback, and so does Dassault.

Thanks

Dave

69


Nicolas Denis

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Hey Dave, I do agree on the fact we need more associative feedrates.I guess I could count how many, but this number will differ from Samarinder's one. Who is right ?
I also discuss with DS people recently, and as far I understand they are implementing lists for some lathe tool related topics.
A list is what will pleased everybody, and you 'll be able to righ click and choose the same way you do it now.
Just my opinion of course.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Dave, I would like to see the option to make the approach feedrate a percentage of the machining feedrate.

I Usually would define my appraoch feedrate at 50% of machining feedrate. And if I changed the machining feedrate it would automatically change the approach feedrate to 50% of the new machining feedrate. 

Thanks for getting back to this subject. I will be adding more comments as I think of them.

Kevin Barker

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Dave: I support this! We as programmers need more flexabilty to contol Approach and retract feed rates.

Paul Poirier

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I would like to have zigzag passes the same on each level if the number of passes on a level is an odd number.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By PPOIRIER on 22 Sep 2011 08:16 AM
I would like to have zigzag passes the same on each level if the number of passes on a level is an odd number.


Hey Paul,

I think that is a great enhancment!  I used to do that all the time in NCL. Zigzag, but the last pass needs to be a climb cut, up against the wall. An furthermore, there needs to be a method to apply cutter compensation on the final pass.

Is that in line with your thinking?

Dave

Randy Hitzeman

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Dave,

I really like the idea of a feedrate list.

Actually, I would like to see it implemented as multiple lists that could be selected based on material type. List 1 for aluminium, list 2 for titanium, ect.

In my vision of how this would work. the lists would also have a pointer in the cutter catalog, much like there is a pointer for user representations.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 21 Sep 2011 06:58 PM
Dave, I would like to see the option to make the approach feedrate a percentage of the machining feedrate.

I Usually would define my appraoch feedrate at 50% of machining feedrate. And if I changed the machining feedrate it would automatically change the approach feedrate to 50% of the new machining feedrate. 

Thanks for getting back to this subject. I will be adding more comments as I think of them.

Roger,

The way I set this interface you could do it with no problem. All DS has to do is to implement 2 new Macros.  >>>> I meant to say 2 new Feedrates for all Macros in all MOs

Engage
Disengage

Then you are free to use Approach and Retract feedrates just as they sound and for all non cutting moves only.

Engage: while cutter is start making contact with material
Disengage: while cutter existing the cut and still in contact with material

Edit: This post has been edited and changes are in Bold letters.


Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By NDENIS on 21 Sep 2011 02:53 PM
Hey Dave, I do agree on the fact we need more associative feedrates.I guess I could count how many, but this number will differ from Samarinder's one. Who is right ?
I also discuss with DS people recently, and as far I understand they are implementing lists for some lathe tool related topics.
A list is what will pleased everybody, and you 'll be able to righ click and choose the same way you do it now.
Just my opinion of course.

Nicolas,

You are right about the list. One doesn't fit all. So that's why I added the "Cut Types" in the GUI which can be expanded by the users based on their shop needs. Just as we could add attributes to the Tool Definition but this needs to be enhanced to have this type of list.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By RHITZEMAN on 22 Sep 2011 09:11 AM
Dave,

I really like the idea of a feedrate list.

Actually, I would like to see it implemented as multiple lists that could be selected based on material type. List 1 for aluminium, list 2 for titanium, ect.

In my vision of how this would work. the lists would also have a pointer in the cutter catalog, much like there is a pointer for user representations.

Randy,

Right now I am trying to keep multiple catalogs of the same tools which is not really productive as you have to deal with multiple catalogs while updating any data in them.

So I suggest one catalog for the tools but it needs to have multiple SFM and cutting data. In that case I would say keep another field a drop down list ( combo box for developers)

From there we select the material to be cut and then all the relative data is updated accordingly mainly SFM and chip load.

And a small check box for the option to populate this SFM data either from catalog or un-check it and user can modify it as we do it today.



Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By DFRANK on 22 Sep 2011 09:01 AM
Posted By PPOIRIER on 22 Sep 2011 08:16 AM
I would like to have zigzag passes the same on each level if the number of passes on a level is an odd number.


Hey Paul,

I think that is a great enhancment!  I used to do that all the time in NCL. Zigzag, but the last pass needs to be a climb cut, up against the wall. An furthermore, there needs to be a method to apply cutter compensation on the final pass.

Is that in line with your thinking?

Dave
This would be nice enhancement too. Right now we do it manually see the number of passes are odd or even and then decide the starting point.

And Cuttercomp for the final pass is a good idea and UG has implemented in their toolpath for a long time.

In Catia we can acieve this by adding the Finishing pass and then activating the cutter in App/Ret Macro Mangement  for the finish pass Approach macro. I know it is bit tedious as you have to manully calculate the finish pass width and then adjust the number for radial stepover passes. Blaah...

So enhancement would be a simple switch check box and Catia does the rest. I am not kidding as this can be written in the code.

Hijack/off


Nicolas Denis

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for these enhancements, I would love to have this non cutting fast feed for instance. I just want to point out, that imho you can't put a number there, it will differ from one shop to another, from one tool type to another, from one material to another ... If you can add or delete items at will from your "cut types" frame, then we are saying exactly the same thing.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I would like to add one more to this.

In Part Operation there should be an option to define the Maximum Spindle Speed just and that can be updated from the Machine editor and this should be available in Machine builder as well where we can specify under Machine Limits.

How do we use it?

In Tool Definition page there should be another field available which can be populated from the part operation' Max spindle , feed limits and then all the SFM data can be recalculated and adjusted for a given catprocess.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I've been asking for the Approach feedrate to be tied to the Machining feedrate for at least 5 years.
The benifit to this request seems so obvious.  

Randy Hitzeman

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Samarinder,

This gets to the nub of the problem. If you don't have machine sim, you can't define and store machines and machine data. THIS CAPABILITY SHOULD BE INDEPENDENT OF MACHINE SIM.

Any one should be able to define and store basic machine data, and all of the parameters that are found in the Machine Editor found inside of the Part Operation.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By NDENIS on 22 Sep 2011 12:02 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for these enhancements, I would love to have this non cutting fast feed for instance. I just want to point out, that imho you can't put a number there, it will differ from one shop to another, from one tool type to another, from one material to another ... If you can add or delete items at will from your "cut types" frame, then we are saying exactly the same thing.

Nicolas,

Yes that's exactly I am saying. Cut Types frame can be modified and maintained by the end-users just as we add other attributes to the Tool Definition.

Should I add more.

A separate Holder catalog for all the tools and use the stick out length to recalculate the final feeds speeds

As we know when tool stick out length (MFG_ASS_GAGE1 or ..GAGE1 + .. GAGE2 if extension used) is beyond 3.5 x Dia of the cutter then we need to reduce the RPM especially to take care of run problems and also tool can't withstand higher tangetial torques if using the original cutting. So we slow down the RPM.

So it would be nice to have another option somewhere on the MO feeds and speed page which will recalculate the entire final data on the page without affecting the data defined in the Tool definition page
 as this tool can be used in other holders with different stick out length.

Now another question arises.

How do you use the same tool in 2 assemblies and output 2 different LOADTL with different T/pocket numbers?

Well UG has implement this in their MOs. Where you can output any number from the MO without affecting the Tool Number in Tool Definition. It is really nice way of using the same tool's another instance wihtout duplicating it. Just as we do in Catproduct , we create multiple instances of the same part and they can be place in different positions in any orientations.


Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By RHITZEMAN on 22 Sep 2011 12:14 PM
Samarinder,

This gets to the nub of the problem. If you don't have machine sim, you can't define and store machines and machine data. THIS CAPABILITY SHOULD BE INDEPENDENT OF MACHINE SIM.

Any one should be able to define and store basic machine data, and all of the parameters that are found in the Machine Editor found inside of the Part Operation.

I agree and I said that it should be available under Part OP or in default Machine Editor where we define all other data which is same in Machine Sim right now. So if they add to Machine Sim then it should be added to the regular Machine Editor which can be accessed from Part OP in image below.

And it coould go somewhere next to the Max machining feedrate


Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi Guys,

 

 

To be real clear, in my vision, the locks set form automatic compute from tooling feeds and speeds, would apply to the engage approach, and engage feedrate.

 

All feeds would be set in cutter technology.

 





The only thing I am not set on, is on the non cutting fast feeds. There could be one global setting, just as RAPID is a global setting.  IE Non RAPID fast feed = fffff.  Some may want to have (2) Non RAPID fast feeds, one for moves greater than a given distance.

 

IE for moves under 2.0  FASTFEED = 100

IE for moves over  2.0  FASTFEED = 400

 

Or, and I have discussed this before, FASTFEED when the tool is inside a solid envelope, and another faster one outside.  The Reason for this would be when close proximity to the part, operators want the feed slower…. 

 

 

Does any of this make sense to any of you?

Dave

 

Attachments

  • COE-ss-feedrates016.jpg (23.8k)

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Dave,

I would leave these 2 out and free from cutting data if DS adds 2 new feedrates Engage and Disengage for all MOs.

Then these App/Ret feedrates can be used for FastFeed etc..

I agree with you non cutting fastfeeds. They can build some more logic as in how to use these App/Ret feedrates for FastFeed values just as you mentioned which is based on the distance

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By SAMARINDER on 22 Sep 2011 11:32 AM
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 21 Sep 2011 06:58 PM
Dave, I would like to see the option to make the approach feedrate a percentage of the machining feedrate.

I Usually would define my appraoch feedrate at 50% of machining feedrate. And if I changed the machining feedrate it would automatically change the approach feedrate to 50% of the new machining feedrate. 

Thanks for getting back to this subject. I will be adding more comments as I think of them.

Roger,

The way I set this interface you could do it with no problem. All DS has to do is to implement 2 new Macros.  >>>> I meant to say 2 new Feedrates for all Macros in all MOs

Engage
Disengage

Then you are free to use Approach and Retract feedrates just as they sound and for all non cutting moves only.

Engage: while cutter is start making contact with material
Disengage: while cutter existing the cut and still in contact with material

Edit: This post has been edited and changes are in Bold letters.


I just updated this post on the last page.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Thanks Samarinder.  The way it is now, I can change the feedrate in the tool definition but I still have to open every MO to change the Approach feedrate.   Chaosh

Randy Hitzeman

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
So many good ideas. Too bad we all couldn't meet in a room for a couple of days with a developer.

Myself, I kinda would like the approach, retract, airfeed (all non-cutting) feedrates in general to somehow be tied to the machine.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By RHITZEMAN on 23 Sep 2011 09:14 AM
So many good ideas. Too bad we all couldn't meet in a room for a couple of days with a developer.

Myself, I kinda would like the approach, retract, airfeed (all non-cutting) feedrates in general to somehow be tied to the machine.


Hi Randy,

 

Dead right on both accounts,

Yes I agree. with the database in V6, the ideas of storing cutter technology into machine sets should be possible. Some may want to stay in v5 forever, but because v6 is as database, in think that is the natural way to get your requirement satisfied.

 

I also agree with getting developers together. Well Randy, while the are not in the room, literally, they are in the virtual room.

 

So you know, after the 2008 COE conference, this private COE forum for Manufacturing, was set up…. at the request of Dassault, and the Manufacturing domain leader, Patrick Touron.

 

As stated several times, we MFGer's ROCK!!

 

The private COE forum for Manufacturing is so sucsessfull, that a e year ago, product requirements forums were set up for all domains. But we still are by far the most productive. :poke: , :poke:  

 

The intention is to have detailed discussions on subjects just like this on. Rest assured, the developers responsible for the feedrate / cutter technology / cutter portion of CATIA, and following this thread.

 

Lets do a Webinar on this.!

 

It has been a while since we have a MFG product specific Webinar, and perhaps, Mark Chitjian would consider setting up one for this topic. I think the tooling Webinar was a great success, and Patrick Touron attended that Webinar, and responded with a preview of the response to implement cutter components as an assembly, which is what we have been asking for.

 

In the mean time, here we have the best of the best of programmers, representing the planet earth, from Australia, with Dave Summ, and Nicolas, from France, and New York, Seattle, California, Kansas, etc.

 

So lets get all the requirements, on the table.

 

The COE DPC has direct communication with Patrick Touron year round, and can inquire if he has any questions, or other information he wishes us to respond to.

 

Now I predict a concern to the developers, and also we the users, is upward compatibility.

 

I think it will take scripts, to upgrade current catprocess, into whatever new functionality comes out of this discussion.

 

Two clear and distinct options to decide on

 

1: Change approach and retract to engage, and disengage

I like the words engage, and disengage. to me, approach really means getting close,

so One implementation would be to have a script change all approach instances to engage.

 

2: Leave approach and retract as is. add the new [login to unmask email], [login to unmask email]

But,  that may not work for all, some may be used to approach / retract, and want them to keep them as is, and add the new [login to unmask email], [login to unmask email] in that  implementation would be to consider approach to equal engage.

 

Those are the two implementations so lets each consider the pros and cons of that, and kick that can around.

 

Again, in all instances, I see all feeds on the MO locked with the use feed from tool button checked.

 

Important question:

 

For specific MO's where the exact feeds from the tool are not optimum, that is where the percentage override column on the MO comes in. That is where you say I want this specific MO, to use 80% of the feedrate defined on the tool.

 

Will the MO % override will be acceptable in all circumstances?

 

I have discussed this with Patrick Touron at the COE annual conference 2010 Orland. The question….concern actually he has on the MO % override is: he is not curtain, that the percentage will still be optimum. He asks, if the part is moved to a new machine and you change the feed on the cutter technology page, how do we know the MO % override will be acceptable in all circumstances? I think it will be. What to you think? all of you


Dave 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Honestly, I kind of like it just the way it is already....I never use auto-compute feeds or speeds. When I need to mass edit feeds and speeds, I just use the process activities table. Works fine here, at least the way I program stuff. Using auto-compute, you can't even use the process tree table, and I still just don't get why anyone would ever want to use auto-compute.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By BFELSHER on 23 Sep 2011 11:06 AM Honestly, I kind of like it just the way it is already....I never use auto-compute feeds or speeds. When I need to mass edit feeds and speeds, I just use the process activities table. Works fine here, at least the way I program stuff. Using auto-compute, you can't even use the process tree table, and I still just don't get why anyone would ever want to use auto-compute.


Well, there it is. Problem solved.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
oops, double post.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By BFELSHER on 23 Sep 2011 11:06 AM

Honestly, I kind of like it just the way it is already....I never use auto-compute feeds or speeds. When I need to mass edit feeds and speeds, I just use the process activities table. Works fine here, at least the way I program stuff. Using auto-compute, you can't even use the process tree table, and I still just don't get why anyone would ever want to use auto-compute.


Hi Bryan,

Your method is fine. Actually, without enhancments, the the process activities table, is only one of two options, to mass edit feeds, for machine change, or after tape proofing.  The other method being paramaters and forumulas.

I still want this enhancment, and so do many others I have spoke to. And the reason is.

CATALOGS CATALOGS CATALOGS.

The methodology is to REUSE EXISTING TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS FOR PRODUCTIVITY.

The enhancment will allow speed and feed data to be entered in tool catalogs, for retreival and use. The enhancment will give the programmers the REQUIRED FLEXABILITY to do this.

And I hope you enjoy your stay in Uganda,
Dave
346

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Let's say you have a catalogue of 2 flute Carbide endmills. You'd have to duplicate this catalogue as many times as you machine different materials. 20 different materials= 20 different 2 flute carbide endmill catalogues.

I have around 20 different tool catalogues for various tool types. (This doesn't include custom catalogues for specific customers, kept in different customer folders, and also doesn't include all my user reps). I have nearly every tool you can buy off the shelf in a tool catalogue. They would never fit in a single catalogue, because then they would take forever just to load each time I want to select a tool.

But for the sake of argument, say that I have 20 catalogues, and I cut 20 different material types. Now, I would end up with 400 catalogues, to cover each tool cutting each type of material, and to really "re use" existing technology, feeds and speeds, etc.

I much prefer having fewer catalogues and using my process templates. I have also cut just about every type of part imaginable with success, and therefore, I rarely (never anymore) receive a part to machine that I haven't done before, and so have a perfect, proven process template for. This template will already have all the feeds/speeds/cut-depths, etc...that I would want to make the part. The few extra tools I might need, I can get from my catalogue, look up the proper feed and speed, and make the change in a minute or so.

I enjoy being able to quickly and easily mass edit ALL feeds and speeds in the process table. If I used Auto-Compute for feeds and speeds, I'd have to go into each tool one at a time and change the fees for that tool and then I'd STILL have to use the process table to edit the approach and retract feeds!!!

Pain in the ass....much faster, more efficient the way I do it. Less prone to error, also. Cleaner, less files to manage, less confusing. Also, I am not programming to some set up feed and speed from the catalogue. I change feeds and speeds, also based on the machining style or operation. Whittling away a super tight corner, I might not want the machine going 300 ipm because it would never get there anyways, and it would be rough on the machine. The same tool later on cuts a wide open edge- and THERE I WANT it going 300 ipm. Not going to happen with auto-compute, because ALL MO's have the same feedrate!

Which program runs better at the machine? The one where the programmer carefully and INTENTIONALLY selected feeds and speeds for each MO based on what the tool is doing, leftover material, etc? Or the one where the programmer just used the default from the catalog, and ALL MO's regardless of amount of material, length of pass, cut depth axial and radial, use the same feedrate?

Optipath? Not everyone has the money or has the license, and it's frankly not the miracle tool it's made out to be. It won't turn a crappy inefficient long program into a professional one.

The quick answer to the problem, is simply NOT to use auto-compute for feeds and speeds. No real advantage, and many disadvantages. As a contractor, customer's sometimes are asking me to make massive feed and speed changes when they swap machines, and they do so by filling out an operator feedback from which I provide to everyone. Based on the form, and using the process activities table, I can mass edit EVERY feedrate (approach, retract, machining, finishing) in one shot very quickly. Customers are very happy when they receive their updated programs in minutes, and I'm not even upset or annoyed, and most of the time- don't even charge a penny.

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Attachments

  • hatersd.jpg (44.9k)

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By BFELSHER on 23 Sep 2011 11:46 AM

Let's say you have a catalogue of 2 flute Carbide endmills. You'd have to duplicate this catalogue as many times as you machine different materials. 20 different materials= 20 different 2 flute carbide endmill catalogues.

I have around 20 different tool catalogues for various tool types. (This doesn't include custom catalogues for specific customers, kept in different customer folders, and also doesn't include all my user reps). I have nearly every tool you can buy off the shelf in a tool catalogue. They would never fit in a single catalogue, because then they would take forever just to load each time I want to select a tool.

But for the sake of argument, say that I have 20 catalogues, and I cut 20 different material types. Now, I would end up with 400 catalogues, to cover each tool cutting each type of material, and to really "re use" existing technology, feeds and speeds, etc.

I much prefer having fewer catalogues and using my process templates. I have also cut just about every type of part imaginable with success, and therefore, I rarely (never anymore) receive a part to machine that I haven't done before, and so have a perfect, proven process template for. This template will already have all the feeds/speeds/cut-depths, etc...that I would want to make the part. The few extra tools I might need, I can get from my catalogue, look up the proper feed and speed, and make the change in a minute or so.

I enjoy being able to quickly and easily mass edit ALL feeds and speeds in the process table. If I used Auto-Compute for feeds and speeds, I'd have to go into each tool one at a time and change the fees for that tool and then I'd STILL have to use the process table to edit the approach and retract feeds!!!

Pain in the ass....much faster, more efficient the way I do it. Less prone to error, also. Cleaner, less files to manage, less confusing. Also, I am not programming to some set up feed and speed from the catalogue. I change feeds and speeds, also based on the machining style or operation. Whittling away a super tight corner, I might not want the machine going 300 ipm because it would never get there anyways, and it would be rough on the machine. The same tool later on cuts a wide open edge- and THERE I WANT it going 300 ipm. Not going to happen with auto-compute, because ALL MO's have the same feedrate!

Which program runs better at the machine? The one where the programmer carefully and INTENTIONALLY selected feeds and speeds for each MO based on what the tool is doing, leftover material, etc? Or the one where the programmer just used the default from the catalog, and ALL MO's regardless of amount of material, length of pass, cut depth axial and radial, use the same feedrate?

Optipath? Not everyone has the money or has the license, and it's frankly not the miracle tool it's made out to be. It won't turn a crappy inefficient long program into a professional one.

The quick answer to the problem, is simply NOT to use auto-compute for feeds and speeds. No real advantage, and many disadvantages. As a contractor, customer's sometimes are asking me to make massive feed and speed changes when they swap machines, and they do so by filling out an operator feedback from which I provide to everyone. Based on the form, and using the process activities table, I can mass edit EVERY feedrate (approach, retract, machining, finishing) in one shot very quickly. Customers are very happy when they receive their updated programs in minutes, and I'm not even upset or annoyed, and most of the time- don't even charge a penny.

 

 

 

Hi Bryan,

 

You make a very lucid and comprehensive  argument for the status quo

  

Bryan, fear not, the check box, and process table would not go away, you  would still be able to do it your way, even if we get all the requested enhancements on this topic.

 

600 catalogs?

 

Fortunately for me, my life is not that complicated. Strike that, My tool catalog requirement is not that complicated.  Ha Ha Ha

 

I only require 10 catalogs

 

  1. Titanium Good old heavy duty, single spindle SNK type
  2. Titanium Good old heavy duty, 3 single spindle Cincinatti Gantry type
  3. Titanium High speed, solid carbide, precision ballanced shrinker holder type
  4. Stainless Good old heavy duty, single spindle SNK type
  5. Stainless Good old heavy duty, 3 single spindle Cincinatti Gantry type
  6. Stainless High speed, solid carbide, precision balanced shrinker holder type
  7. Aluminum and potato, single spindle SNK type 4000 RPM
  8. Aluminum Good old heavy duty, 3 single spindle Cincinatti Gantry type 3600 RPM
  9. Aluminum Good old heavy duty, 3 single spindle Cincinatti Gantry type 10,000 RPM, 100 HP motors
  10. Aluminum High speed, solid carbide, precision balanced shrinker holder type

 

80/ 20 Rule  A solutions that takes 20% of the work and solves 80% of the requirement, is a good solution.

 

I would use the Bryan Felsher methodology, for the rare instances where we cut Bizarre materials.

 

Dave

 

 


Randy Hitzeman

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Bryan,

What you do, works for you, because you are flying solo.
For those of us who have worked in medium to large enterprises, the need for organization and standardization are of paramount concern.
When large projects come in, and you need to hire 20+ contractors to meet deadline, you appreciate this.
Getting a large group of programmers to follow the same methodology is tantamount to herding cats.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By RHITZEMAN on 23 Sep 2011 12:30 PM
Bryan,

What you do, works for you, because you are flying solo.
For those of us who have worked in medium to large enterprises, the need for organization and standardization are of paramount concern.
When large projects come in, and you need to hire 20+ contractors to meet deadline, you appreciate this.
Getting a large group of programmers to follow the same methodology is tantamount to herding cats.


Very good point Randy !!!

This is not an either or issue.
Many methodologies exist for handeling feeds and speeds.
This will be another one, of the users, for the users.

Dave

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I don't use tool catalogs but I do typicaly throw in the feed per tooth and surface speed when I define a tool.
I work on many computers at many locations so I prefer a solution that works with the minimum # of files that I need to drag around with me.
When I sit at a new computer as long as it has the standard CATIA loaded I'm good to go.

So, I'm thinking maybe Bryan's solution would work for me. I'd just turn off the automatic feeds and speeds and turn off the spindle output.
Manually turn on the spindle (SPIND/35000) and adjust feeds in the process table.

5 years ago I thought it would be simple to tie the Approach feedrate to the Machining feedrate but it is obviously much more difficult than I thought.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Crap! The approach feedrate isn't in the process table.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Yes it is

Look again, adjust your filter

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 23 Sep 2011 03:10 PM

I don't use tool catalogs but I do typicaly throw in the feed per tooth and surface speed when I define a tool.

I agree 100% I don't use speeds and feeds in catalogs either, because of the reasons Bryan stated, and besides, it can’t work in all circumstances. But with all these enhancements … they will! Because with the CATIA we have today, functions like automatic compute, are just about……. unusable!!! That is why I am proposing these enhancements. This whole methodology needs a major overhaul

I work on many computers at many locations so I prefer a solution that works with the minimum # of files that I need to drag around with me.  When I sit at a new computer as long as it has the standard CATIA loaded I'm good to go.

Many other users do not have that limitation. But there is nothing to stop you from continuing to keep doing your way, after we get these enhancments.

So, I'm thinking maybe Bryan's solution would work for me. I'd just turn off the automatic feeds and speeds and turn off the spindle output.  Manually turn on the spindle (SPIND/35000) and adjust feeds in the process table.

I see the activities process table as a CRUTCH created by DS, because the functionality for cutter technology, automatic compute, … was never completed based on user feedback, so we can not use the software the way in was intended to be used. The developers were the ones the put the automatic compute button there in the beginning, and DS intended to be used!!!! And Dassault is smart enough to listen to user, and enhance the software.

5 years ago I thought it would be simple to tie the Approach feedrate to the Machining feedrate but it is obviously much more difficult than I thought

Don't give up on that. If all these ER are implemented, you will have that easily.

Dave
.


Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I guess I shouldn't be such a whiney bitch since many of my requests have been implemented.
This subject always seems to end up more complicated than I think it should be.
For my purposes having the approach defined as a percentage of the machining would cover over 99% of my needs.
I already have the machining feed & speed and the finishing feed and speed in the tool definition. Using those three feedrates are enough for me.
I hate to see this subject made more complicated than it needs to be.
If we keep it simple it is more likely to get implemented.

I still don't see the approach in the process table. I never use that thing.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By Roger Bombassei on 23 Sep 2011 03:19 PM
Crap! The approach feedrate isn't in the process table.

Roger,

You might want to double check as it is available in the process table.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I'll have to triple check because I already double checked. lol
I'll look it up in the docs. Thanks

One more thing you guys need to keep in mind. If Dassault releases something that messes up existing programs or even has a few bugs people are going to moan and cry. It might be best to start small and build from there.

If you guys get all the bells and whistles to work, I will still probably get my approach as a percentage of machining.

Just my 2 cents

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Roger,

I dont think it is any complicated at all. I can do lots of stuff using MPs where you can control all these feedrates at your will. But there are so many times when we don't use MPs. So this would be a major enhancement to Catia NC machining workbenches.

Just get me the code of Feed Speeds management, App/Ret macro management and Tool Definition/Tool catalog from DS and I'll modify all of them before the next COE conference.

And they can fix the rest of the code for Nls files and MP integration etc..




Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
PS

Roger, I'll add your App feedrate as a percentage of machining even if it would be available as a new feedrate "Engage".

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Ok, I found the Approach feedrate in the column filter of the process table.

I turned off auto compute in the options.

Now I can turn off all the spindle outputs by highlighting the MOs and using right click - definition.

Simple and effective.

Thanks guys

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Roger,

I thought you were using spindle-off macro for that.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By SAMARINDER on 25 Sep 2011 11:16 PM
Roger,

I thought you were using spindle-off macro for that.


For now since I plan to turn off auto compute I probably wont need the macro When I have a customer that wants to use R22 I will give auto compute feeds and speeds a try again

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
If anyone's interested, I have for sale a macro that will allow multi-select and ask for a percentage value. It will then convert the approach feedrates to the percentage of machining feedrate as defined on all selected MO's. It runs super quick and works great.

The macro can be made into an icon and saved to a toolbar for easy mouse-click access.

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Forgot to mention. The macro also allows adjustment of retract and finishng feedrates as a percentage of machining feedrate. As far as I know it works in all versions of
V5.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Hi Bryan,

If I was a manager, with a budget for such things, I would buy it right now. Unfortunately, others make those kind of decisions lately.

I think that such scripts are available, and are needed, and used by programmers like you attenuate the requirement for a more permanent solution. you have always used scripts to do things real fast.

The ideas I am putting forward are in my opinion, a giant leap forward in feed management, if implemented.

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Quality is assumed

 

I find it interesting that several programmers here have expressed concerns, that these enhancements will screw up things that work.  perhaps that is a valid concern, as we have seen regressions, but I am still going to document what I consider valid enhancements.  We have an expression around here. The quality of a program is assumed. what that means is, we maintain a level of quality for our programs regardless of the chaos that drifts our way. If the customer ups the delivery, etc, we do not throw quality out the window.

 

When we as users request enhancements, I assume, and I think most of us expect, that DS will not have regressions, or worse, remove functionality,  were previous versions of CATIA will now not function. That does not always happen as we know. 

 

But fear that they might mess something up, is not going to stop me from getting ideas as I program, and putting them up on the forum for consideration by my fellow colleges, and the Dassault developers.

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Sorry for making this seem so complicated.

 

I think I can make this a little easier to get your arms around. I usually make a video to go along with my enhancement suggestions that I send to the Dassault developers. I have gotten good feedback from many user, both here and by making some phone calls.

 

Should I post a Video for COE members to download? I am pretty busy, by I will make the time in the next 2 weeks, to cut one on this topic to send to DS. Perhaps, posting this Video for COE members to download, would help both end confusion, and generate more dialog and feedback.

 

Feedback is the whole point of my posting here. Remember what I said after COE 2011. Patrick Touron specifically stated that more participation from the users is to be encouraged.

 
Best Regards
Dave
632

Dave King

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Yes. I think it would be helpful.

Thanks,

Bryan Carpio Felsher

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I just think that auto-compute is for beginning programmer's, or for very simple shops that only do the same thing over and over again.

The problem is, I calculated around 20 catalog's x's 20 material types = 400 catalogs. But in reality, each machine may very well ALSO have their own requirements for each material type, so you have to multiply it by the number of different machine requirements. Say you have 20 which is very general- most shops probably don't have 20 machines that each require their own feedrates, but in my case, this is a bare minimum...I probably need to control well over 100 machines). This is now 8000 different possiblities for catalogs, if you really wanted to consider that each catalog was truly DIALED IN PERFECT for each situation.

Granted- this is completely ridiculous...so we get to the point where we say that each catalog is just to get you in the general "ballpark" feedrate and spindle speed. So, if it's just to get you in the ballpark...then why have feeds and speeds in the catalogs at all?

Hence....the simple solution is JUST DON'T USE AUTO-COMPUTE. There is no way to have a perfect solution and automate this. Just use the software the way it WORKS. Screw how it was "intended". What WORKS is what is important to me. Once you get to the point where you have template CATProcesses for every type of part you do, you'll find yourself very rarely at all going into tool catalog's or Machine Process catalog's anyways. I really don't use either very often any more at all. Maybe a few times per part I program, and that's it...

As for wanting feedrates to be a percentage. Well, in general, I always do this. I just calculate it. Most of the time, if high-speed machining, my approach is 25%. Sometimes it's 50%. Depends on a lot of things. I drag out a calculator, and don't even use a script. It would take me longer. But...if I have to MASS-EDIT someone else's program, then THAT is where the script is a real time-saver.

I'm not a guy who decides at the very end of programming what I want my feedrates to be. How can anyone do that, and have good feedrates, when the toolpaths are no longer fresh in your mind? I program feedrates AS I go. I use the Process Activities Table before post-processing, mainly to double check, and make sure I don't have something leftover that I didn't mean to be there. Sometimes when you copy/paste from one tool to another, I forget to also adjust the feedrate. The Table lets me quickly review my feeds and speeds, and make quick adjustments.

A percentage column would be nice....but my calculator is close-by whenever I'm programming. In reality, I wouldn't even use the percentage column if I had it. Why? Because I don't like oddball numbers. 25% of 150ipm is 37.5 ipm. I'd rather have 40ipm in there.

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Posted By BFELSHER on 26 Sep 2011 12:24 PM
If anyone's interested, I have for sale a macro that will allow multi-select and ask for a percentage value. It will then convert the approach feedrates to the percentage of machining feedrate as defined on all selected MO's. It runs super quick and works great.

The macro can be made into an icon and saved to a toolbar for easy mouse-click access.


Bryan, you got me thinking that using the process table will make it extreamly easy to mass adjust feedrates. Of course I'll have to break out the calculator instead of just entering the surface speed and feed per tooth. And I will have to mutiply the machine feed by the percentage to get the approach feed I want. But I am thinking that will be good enough for me. I bet a lot of people do it that way and they are laughing at me for struggling this long with auto compute.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

 Hi Friends,

 

Regarding: "I'm not a guy who decides at the very end of programming what I want my feedrates to be. How can anyone do that, and have good feedrates"

 

Neither am I. The first question I ask is " What machine are we going to run this on?  a 10,000 RPM 100HP, or a 7,000RPM 70 HP, or a 4,000RPM 40 HP machine?


 

The Next question I ask is  "How many parts are we making?",

The Next question I ask is  "Single spindle or 3 spindle?"

The Next question I ask is  "can I use a 25 degree machine, or am I stuck on a 20 degree?"

 

 

I decide the feeds as I am programming also, but….

 

But the point is, we need to put the same job, on different machines. And quickly. It is not the exception, it is the rule. and I know I speak for many, those that work in large machine shops, because I have talked to people and they agree we need these changes.

 

We always try to fit the part to the best machine, but sometimes we have to move it at the last minute. , sometimes we get too much 30 degree work, or too much this or that. and we have to move it.    If we have a lasting traffic jam, we buy another machine.  

 

The requirement that is driving this enhancement, is that we are required to change programs for different machines constantly, after they are in production. Heck, once I had to take a big ass complex part, and redo it from 30 deg, to 25 deg, because we got new aluminum 30 deg work, and we have a ton of 25 deg Titanium cutting machines. 

 

Regarding "Hence....the simple solution is JUST DON'T USE AUTO-COMPUTE."

 

I agree 100% I don't use AUTO-COMPUTE either.   I don't use speeds and feeds in catalogs either, because of the reasons Bryan stated, and besides, it can’t work in all circumstances.

 

But with all these enhancements … they will! Because with the CATIA we have today, functions like automatic compute, are just about……. unusable!!!      That is why I am proposing these enhancements. This whole methodology needs a major overhaul.

 

Again, I will stress the point that existing functionality needs to work in the future.

 

Dave
 669

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
Hi,

There is nothing complicated here in order to implement this enhancement. I have done lots of things in Catia NC machining using scripts. And I can make pretty much any script for Catia NC machining within its capabilities. But making lots of scripts, you'll end up with more scripts than the number of MOs you'll ever use.

However  there is one thing need to be addressed in MOs' feeds-speeds calculation tab page.
I have brought this up in Mark's attention before in other topics here. It would be nice if Catia computes the feedrates based up on the RPM and RPM can be calculated based upon the SFM provided in the Tool-Definition just as we do it manually.

Anyway here are the simple steps of this enhancements

1. Catia reads SFM from Tool-Def and calculates the RPM

2. It reads max RPM from Part OP and adjust the RPM accordingly (whichever is the lowest)

3. If MO dialog box has Cut Types (Percentage of SFM) pull down menu then Catia applies that percentage to the MO' RPM

4. Now it reads the chip load and number of flutes from Tool-Def and calculates the machining and finishing feedrates using the above calculated RPM

5. If MO dialog box has Engage and Disengage 2 new feedrates then they will be calculated based upon the percentage defined in the Tool Def.

say 75% for Engage

then it will be 75% of machining feedrate(calculated in step 4)

say 100% for Disengage then it will be either 100% of machining feedrate
or it will be 100% of Finishing feedrate(calculated in step 4) if the last tool motion is making a finishing cut using Finishing feedrate and existing out of material. So it will be dynamic and Catia will look at the MO's machining strategy and see if finishing is turned on.

6. If MOs dialog boxes dont have Engage and Disengage fields then the step 5 can be performed for Approach and Retract feedrates.
But App/Ret feedrates have to have a check box option in order to use Auto Compute.

However lots of people use App/Ret as regular Fastfeed for Approaching and Retracting away from material without cutting it. So that is the reason I suggested 2 new feedrates Engage and Disengage without affecting the existing catprocess files and existing functionality would remain intact.


I see the importance of this enhancements and I work with a wide range of customers from small machine shop to large machine shops.

And here are some benefits of these enhancements.

1. You will be able to store much more cutting data information inside Tools-Catalogs
2. It will enable users to utilize such Tools-Catalog more and more.
3. Once people start using the Tools-Catalogs then next thing they will use Machining Processes more efficiently
4. All NC-programmers are on the same page while using the same Tools-Catalogs in the company
5. New NC-programmers/Contractors will be able to use this information without any problem.

And I don't see any cons for these enhancements. If there are any please bring them up so it can be resolved.

Thanks,
Samarinder

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

 

Hi Samarinder.

 

Very well stated.  I like your list.

 

And here are some benefits of these enhancements.

1. You will be able to store much more cutting data information inside Tools-Catalogs
2. It will enable users to utilize such Tools-Catalog more and more.
3. Once people start using the Tools-Catalogs then next thing they will use Machining Processes more efficiently
4. All NC-programmers are on the same page while using the same Tools-Catalogs in the company
5. New NC-programmers/Contractors will be able to use this information without any problem.


Regarding "And I don't see any cons for these enhancements. If there any please bring them up so it can be resolved."

 

The only downside people can say, is that  in incorporating these  enhancements, that Dassault  will screw up things that work.      Again,  that is a valid concern, as we have seen regressions,   Quality is assumed.  I hope DS is improving the regression testing, a topic that has been discussed in detail.

 

Dave

 

 

Roger Bombassei

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)
I just threw my .02 in the pile since I was asked to comment.
If you don't want to simplify it, I surely won't be mad.
I'll let you know how my new format works out. I'm excited to try it.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

I hate to say the fact that UG has far more advanced feedrate management than any other cam packages I have used in the past. And they have recently implemented this percentage of machining feedrate idea on top of that in their MOs dialog boxes.

I hope Catia would implement better stuff using all these ideas posted in this thread.

Alex Smygov

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

How about leaving all macro management and feed/speed management the way it is... and calculate material by constant volume and chip thickness removal... so once everything get replayed in Catia with stock material removal it will pop out moded feeds like CGTech Optipath and Volumill?... I would like to see that... not complicate anything but simplify... more options will bring additional confusion to programmers that transfer from UG, etc to Catia.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Alex Smygov)

If you have used UG then you will understand the importance of this enhancement.


In Reply to Alex Smygov:

How about leaving all macro management and feed/speed management the way it is... and calculate material by constant volume and chip thickness removal... so once everything get replayed in Catia with stock material removal it will pop out moded feeds like CGTech Optipath and Volumill?... I would like to see that... not complicate anything but simplify... more options will bring additional confusion to programmers that transfer from UG, etc to Catia.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

If you have used UG then you will understand the importance of this enhancement.


In Reply to Alex Smygov:

How about leaving all macro management and feed/speed management the way it is... and calculate material by constant volume and chip thickness removal... so once everything get replayed in Catia with stock material removal it will pop out moded feeds like CGTech Optipath and Volumill?... I would like to see that... not complicate anything but simplify... more options will bring additional confusion to programmers that transfer from UG, etc to Catia.

 

 

Hi Samarinder, and everyone else.

 Alex is a very smart guy. I am sure he understands he value of this enhancement…… He just wants Volumill motion more then anything else.

  I am pretty sure that what Alex is innocently doing is trying to make the point that getting Optipath like feed management, and Volumill like motion IS SO IMPORTANT, that he does what some other COE members have done: ……They  say don't do that, do this instead.

If you read this whole thread you will see that our good friend Bryan Felsher wrote a white paper on why this enhancement should not be implemented, how he would prefer and 100% of the developers time should be spent eliminating regressions, and fixing bugs.

Now Bryan is an excellent programmer. I am sure Bryan would love it,   if all the ideas on this thread were implemented, and Dassault did not take away any functionality, or skew something up in the process. Not everyone says exactly what they mean.

As I have stated many times Bryan is right. eliminating regressions, and fixing bugs is very important. Bryan has stated many times, what is most important to him is STABLE BUG FREE CATIA. 

As far as Alex's comments are concerned,  I agree 100% that Optipath  Volumill are important. I have personally discussed all these things with Patrick Touron, and also the developers I am fortunate

BUT I WOULD REQUEST THAT WHEN PEOPLE WANT TO ADVOCATE A PET PROJECT, THAT THEY DO SO WITHOUT HIJACKING MY THREADS WITH OFF TOPIC COMMENTS THAT SAY " PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT WHAT DAVE SUGGESTS, DO MY THING INSTEAD"

Every one has the freedom of speech here. but I think that the don’t do this do that instead mantra is counterproductive, and dilutes my messages. Actually they are OUR MESSAGE.

This is a large problem for me because I put a lot of time into documenting Valid , important, and valuable enhancements over the years.  We need and get good results for all of us.

I has said many times…. We can have our cake and eat it too. but this practice of don’t do this do that instead, is not ………….. democratic. It is who shouts the longest or most often.

I do not really know what I am going to do about this. I love the COE forum, and I love you guys, but I do not have the time, or the inclination, to debate these don’t do this do that instead comments.

And THAT is the reason why I have not been posting any more ER's on the Forum.

Not until I figure out how to solve this problem. This thread was the straw that broke the camels back for me.

I do have One solution I have been kicking around. I Have been accumulating a Large list of  small enhancements for R23, and I may only send them into Dassault and the COE DPC rather then post them here.

One solution I have been kicking around is to request that  COE sends the list to all COE MFG  subscribers, when I am done, and either allow me to do a Webinar on the content, or have some other form of method to EDUCATE the user base on the Value of the enhancements', and get RELEVENT feedback to get the best possible IMPLEMENTATION of these enhancements.

Besides the don’t do this to that instead, is the "With my superior VB and Process skills, I can do this without any enhancements" Again, understood, but it dilutes the message.  I know I speak for many, when I say many programmers want functions without needing VB experts, and all that. Other do want to be VB experts themselves, but do not have permission, or budgets for training or time for the development.

I hope people really read, and understand this post.

There are many OTHER ways for programmers to their ideas to Dassault.

Posting on the COE Forum is just one of them.

In my opinion, unless something changes, it is not worth it for me to take the extra time of putting my ER ideas on the COE Forum. I can email my ideas to the power users, get good feedback, and send the best polished ER into Dassault.

My motivations are as always, to get us all better software.

I am open to suggestions on the best way to solve this "don’t do that do this instead" problem.

I am not angry. I just made a business decision. Working to get needed enhancements is a good expenditure of my time, and get valuable return on my companies ALC investment, which is quite large. I think we have 10 CATIA seats not.

But  uploading ER's on the COE forum, is not a good expenditure of my time. Answering unrelated counterproductive replies is a unnecessary distraction.

Enjoy the weekend folks.

Dave PacMen

 

My locks are Greenbay -7, and Baltimore -7

Alex Smygov

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

To clarify my post...

What I mean is that I do want all of the above mentioned Feedrate control options... But if you get Constant Volume feed control when it recognizes material engagement automaticaly (right after video replay) and will slow down and speed up according to Valume of Material Being Removed it will solve most of the issues metioned above... Altough I do want to have Manual feedrate control as well in case automatic stuff mulfunctions... :)

As far as UG... I am utilizing it now but could not understand what you say about advanced feedrate control there... from my point of view it have 3 times less options to control feedrate and Approach/Retract Macros then Catia.

In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

If you have used UG then you will understand the importance of this enhancement.


In Reply to Alex Smygov:

How about leaving all macro management and feed/speed management the way it is... and calculate material by constant volume and chip thickness removal... so once everything get replayed in Catia with stock material removal it will pop out moded feeds like CGTech Optipath and Volumill?... I would like to see that... not complicate anything but simplify... more options will bring additional confusion to programmers that transfer from UG, etc to Catia.

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Alex Smygov)

There is difference between utilizing and using the software. As I mentioned somewhere on the forum in other threads that one can learn lots of things on his/her own but there are certain thing you need someone to show you.

Let me tell you a fact that UG doesn't have 3 times less options to control feedrates than Catia. Because I have used and utilized UG along with Catia since version NX3. I am not saying it is the best but it certainly does lot better than Catia when it comes to feedrate management. Now I dont want to go in details here. If you need help then let me know I can walk you thru it over the weekend.

Only thing in feedrates is missing in UG is "Finishing feedrate" and it depends how many times you have used this feature in Catia while using the same MO. But then again it is not hard to implement in UG because they already produce CUTCOM just for finishing the walls even in Roughing MOs. So when they are activating CUTCOM for such passes they can implement another variable of Finishing feedrate with a minor effort.

Regarding the Volumetric feedrate

I leave it with Vericut since they have been doing it for years and UG also has this feature as well and it works on the percentage of the machining feedrate along with options to control the min and max feedrate.



In Reply to Alex Smygov:

To clarify my post...

What I mean is that I do want all of the above mentioned Feedrate control options... But if you get Constant Volume feed control when it recognizes material engagement automaticaly (right after video replay) and will slow down and speed up according to Valume of Material Being Removed it will solve most of the issues metioned above... Altough I do want to have Manual feedrate control as well in case automatic stuff mulfunctions... :)

As far as UG... I am utilizing it now but could not understand what you say about advanced feedrate control there... from my point of view it have 3 times less options to control feedrate and Approach/Retract Macros then Catia.

In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

If you have used UG then you will understand the importance of this enhancement.


In Reply to Alex Smygov:

How about leaving all macro management and feed/speed management the way it is... and calculate material by constant volume and chip thickness removal... so once everything get replayed in Catia with stock material removal it will pop out moded feeds like CGTech Optipath and Volumill?... I would like to see that... not complicate anything but simplify... more options will bring additional confusion to programmers that transfer from UG, etc to Catia.

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Alex Smygov)



In Reply to Alex Smygov:

To clarify my post...

What I mean is that I do want all of the above mentioned Feedrate control options... But if you get Constant Volume feed control when it recognizes material engagement automaticaly (right after video replay) and will slow down and speed up according to Valume of Material Being Removed it will solve most of the issues metioned above... Altough I do want to have Manual feedrate control as well in case automatic stuff mulfunctions... :)

 

 

Thanks for clearing this up Alex

We can use all the enhancments we can get.

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

 

Regarding the Volumetric feedrate

I leave it with Vericut since they have been doing it for years and UG also has this feature as well and it works on the percentage of the machining feedrate along with options to control the min and max feedrate.

 

 

 

You see, this is exactly what I am talking about... Either / or.... Dont to X , do Y instead

Watch what happens when I substiture Vericut for Volumil

I leave it with Volumill since they have been doing it for years.

 

Now I could say "Why should dassault developers waste their time on something that has already been perfected.

 

The answer is simple... Integration

the more enhancments we get, the better CATIA will be

And the less we will have to fool around with 3rd party software.

JM6C

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Thanks Dave for clearing it up.


I am not against any enhancements but I would rather stay focused on what is being asked in this topic's key enahncement. If we stay focused then DS can stay focused as well in order to provide us a better solution.

Today I want this tomorrow I want that..Oh wait a minute I want to add this too and this and..blah, blah.... Believe me software companies dont work like that. If we keep doing that then DS would simply add another wonderful enhancement like Trochoid milling MO.

I just needed to straighten up some facts about UG and Catia for feedrates.

jm2c

 

In Reply to Dave Frank:



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

 

Regarding the Volumetric feedrate

I leave it with Vericut since they have been doing it for years and UG also has this feature as well and it works on the percentage of the machining feedrate along with options to control the min and max feedrate.

 

 

 

You see, this is exactly what I am talking about... Either / or.... Dont to X , do Y instead

Watch what happens when I substiture Vericut for Volumil

I leave it with Volumill since they have been doing it for years.

 

Now I could say "Why should dassault developers waste their time on something that has already been perfected.

 

The answer is simple... Integration

the more enhancments we get, the better CATIA will be

And the less we will have to fool around with 3rd party software.

JM6C

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)

Hi,

I have made an application for adjusting the feedrates and also added options to define/override such values. In other words my program utilizes the Tool-definition for all the cutting data such as Surface Speed, Chip Load, number of flutes, max feedrates etc... Or user can override these values by manually entering them if Tool-definition doesn't have proper cutting data or if it is simply missing.

Then it will look into the depth of cuts such as radial and axial along with the stick out of the tool, then it will calculate the cutting feed based upon various factors including such as tangential cutting forces, machine data, max power, max rpm, etc..etc..

If DS can provide an additional string parameter as a combo-box list for Cut Types for all MOs then I can match the data and update feeds and speed accordingly. As of now user can add a special comment inside the MO in order to define Cut Type.

I still want this enhancement but I can wait for it. If there is any api available to read and modify the toolpath-data inside Catia then this application can be enhanced to produce Volumetric feedrates too. But for this I need some additional fine-tuning of cgr produced in Catia. I reported a problem back in 2008 but nothing has been done on that side.

Happy Holidays

Samarinder

Attachments

  • Feeds_Speed_Calculator1.pptx (112k)

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Samarinder Singh)



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

Hi,

I have made an application for adjusting the feedrates and also added options to define/override such values. In other words my program utilizes the Tool-definition for all the cutting data such as Surface Speed, Chip Load, number of flutes, max feedrates etc... Or user can override these values by manually entering them if Tool-definition doesn't have proper cutting data or if it is simply missing.

Then it will look into the depth of cuts such as radial and axial along with the stick out of the tool, then it will calculate the cutting feed based upon various factors including such as tangential cutting forces, machine data, max power, max rpm, etc..etc..

If DS can provide an additional string parameter as a combo-box list for Cut Types for all MOs then I can match the data and update feeds and speed accordingly. As of now user can add a special comment inside the MO in order to define Cut Type.

I still want this enhancement but I can wait for it. If there is any api available to read and modify the toolpath-data inside Catia then this application can be enhanced to produce Volumetric feedrates too. But for this I need some additional fine-tuning of cgr produced in Catia. I reported a problem back in 2008 but nothing has been done on that side.

Happy Holidays

Samarinder

 

 

Hi Samarinder

That is a very creative work-around. You will have to please demonstrate it to me someday soon in a live meeting!.

In the mean time, I am confident this will be implemented sooner or later. I have talked to many NC programming managers about this in detail, and all have agreed that the bulk of the enhancements defined here is needed. One of the programming managers has over 100 NC programmers, and supports these enhancements.   

Best Regards

Dave

Samarinder Singh

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi Dave,

I am glad you liked my idea which is nothing more than what I was discussing here for the feedrate enhancements. Once of these weekends we can get together online for the meeting to discuss its features.I have to do a few more tweaks in order to deal with multiple machines' data in a multiple part-ops catprocess. As a workaround I can still use it within one part-op before changing the machine data for the next part-op.

I wanted to demonstrate it to DS and other fellow NC-programmers here that it can be done inside any cam package without any complications as I mentioned earlier. In doing so I ended up with another useful automation. And I find it very useful for the projects I am working on right now. I don't have to depend on the feeds and speeds in Tool Def./MPs anymore. Also it would take lot less mouse clicks when modifying someone else' catprocess in matter of seconds.

And soon I'll add this option to my NC-Programmer's Assistant.

Thanks,
Samarinder

In Reply to Dave Frank:



In Reply to Samarinder Singh:

Hi,

I have made an application for adjusting the feedrates and also added options to define/override such values. In other words my program utilizes the Tool-definition for all the cutting data such as Surface Speed, Chip Load, number of flutes, max feedrates etc... Or user can override these values by manually entering them if Tool-definition doesn't have proper cutting data or if it is simply missing.

Then it will look into the depth of cuts such as radial and axial along with the stick out of the tool, then it will calculate the cutting feed based upon various factors including such as tangential cutting forces, machine data, max power, max rpm, etc..etc..

If DS can provide an additional string parameter as a combo-box list for Cut Types for all MOs then I can match the data and update feeds and speed accordingly. As of now user can add a special comment inside the MO in order to define Cut Type.

I still want this enhancement but I can wait for it. If there is any api available to read and modify the toolpath-data inside Catia then this application can be enhanced to produce Volumetric feedrates too. But for this I need some additional fine-tuning of cgr produced in Catia. I reported a problem back in 2008 but nothing has been done on that side.

Happy Holidays

Samarinder

 

 

Hi Samarinder

That is a very creative work-around. You will have to please demonstrate it to me someday soon in a live meeting!.

In the mean time, I am confident this will be implemented sooner or later. I have talked to many NC programming managers about this in detail, and all have agreed that the bulk of the enhancements defined here is needed. One of the programming managers has over 100 NC programmers, and supports these enhancements.   

Best Regards

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi Mark Chitjian,

This is still my number one enhancment.  I have explained this to over 3 dozen programmers. All but one are all for it.

Take a look at this email I got from Ahmed.

I just wish the people that talked to me, would take the time to post on the Forum

 

 

here is the reply

Dave,

 I went thru your Power Point presentation. All of the proposals are so good, all the time I was just wondering how did this guy read my mind!. An expanded tool technology is such a great idea. I am totally with you on script, yes you can do a lot of thing thru script but not all of us are VB expert. I remember Deepak suggested avoiding script as much as possible. We want control in our hand not to an off-site VB Programmer's hand.

Thanks for taking so much your personal time for this effort.

Ahmed.

Frank Dorsey

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

I have to agree with Dave Frank on this one , having a percentage feedrate on the tool page would be a tremendious improvement. I like the idea of changing the feedrate on the tool page and just reprocessing the job , with the percentage attached threre will be no more mass editing.

 We try to push the envelope machining and when we goof up it involves mass changes on feedrate and RPM. Having this would reduce the time it takes to make the changes , adjust the tool page we are done and the slowdowns are taken care of automatically.

 With our effort here to streamline the time it takes to program having the system do more work is a no brainer. Faster programming time equals more parts to program in house.

 

 Frank. 

 

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Frank Dorsey)

Hi Frank

Very well put.

 

This is the power of colaboration. You added some new reasons not spoke about before.

Best Regards

YES BRAINER

Don Javier

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

I would like to see a percentage federate in each machining operation. This will give me the option to use the “automatic compute”.  I will also say, in order for this enhancement to work (for me) they must add the new federate percentage as well as the feeds and speeds for each tool to the process table. I am one of those who use the process table to set my feedrates and without the ability to change the speeds and feeds in one area I couldn’t take full advantage of this enhancement.

I know this is possible using VB and I can add this function into some of the macros I have, but not everyone this option.  

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Don Javier)



In Reply to Don Javier:

I would like to see a percentage federate in each machining operation. This will give me the option to use the “automatic compute”.  I will also say, in order for this enhancement to work (for me) they must add the new federate percentage as well as the feeds and speeds for each tool to the process table. I am one of those who use the process table to set my feedrates and without the ability to change the speeds and feeds in one area I couldn’t take full advantage of this enhancement.

I know this is possible using VB and I can add this function into some of the macros I have, but not everyone this option.  

 

Thanks for the reply Don,

 

You hit the nail on the head.   “automatic compute”.  is useless without these enhancments.

I agree 100% with you comments:  they must add the new federate percentage as well as the feeds and speeds for each tool to the process table

Thank you for not being selfish, and stating I know this is possible using VB and I can add this function into some of the macros I have, but not everyone this option.  

I think everyone should have permission, and funding to use VB. But even if I was as good at is as Samarinder, or Cliff Johnson, I would still want to control feeds on the tool, for the reasons Frank Dorsey just said.

Dave

Larry Call

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Dave,

Quite the conversation going on here with varying opinions to handle tool feed-rates.  I suppose I’ll throw in a penney’s worth of my own.

I like the idea of having the flexibility of activating local feeds as well as percent of Machining based on CATALOG managed tools.  Balancing complexity of the GUI vs. ease of use is a concern relative to, how much do I have to touch vs. how much can I touch for desired outcomes. 

Not all of us are high steppers like Mr. Felsher, although I’ve got a few years of metal cutting and successfully supporting multiple machine shops in my history.  I have also developed a few programs with the auto compute off, especially when supporting a machine that I may never program for again.  However, most of my programming takes place in big box companies that have 30+ programmers with varying degrees of experience, aptitude and attitude, contractors included.  To functionally support those programming needs, tool catalogs keep everyone on the same page.  That doesn’t mean that programmers are forced to use only the catalog values, because some of us jump between auto-compute on and off while we program to manage cutting conditions.  Not everyone is able to grasp that, so auto feeds get usable work to the shop.  It’s helpful to be in a tooling shop where it’s likely that you’ll only run that program once.  Production parts have a higher threshold for optimum material removal, but there should still be the opportunity to improve the run-time during tape proving.

Optipath and Volumill are not on my list since part of our validation process is to have reproducible code based on Catia APT and any 3rd party activity breaks that link.  I’m guessing the bang for the buck hasn’t proven to be worth it for the decision makers.

The options that Dave and Samarinder have suggested would be even more useful if I could apply “locals” inside the MO based on the volume being cut at different stages.

With so little time and so much to read on this thread alone, hopefully I can absorb at least some of the suggestions, probably have to re-read the thread to get more of it to sink in.

 

Later,

Larry @ Cessna

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Larry Call)



In Reply to Larry Call:

 

I like the idea of having the flexibility of activating local feeds as well as percent of Machining based on CATALOG managed tools. 

 

........ However, most of my programming takes place in big box companies that have 30+ programmers with varying degrees of experience, aptitude and attitude, contractors included.  To functionally support those programming needs, tool catalogs keep everyone on the same page. ............

 

............That doesn’t mean that programmers are forced to use only the catalog values, because some of us jump between auto-compute on and off while we program to manage cutting conditions.............


 

Hi Larry,

You have captured the essence, of what I am proposing. 

I have found that in the catia we have today, the process table is better.  With these enhancments CATALOGS will be usable.

 

The key is…. Approach should be definable on the TOOL…. as a percentage of the Machining feed.

There need to be a FAST non cutting approach, for G01, in addition to RAPID G00.

There should be enough locals, definable on the tool, so you don't need locals.

For the time when one feed does not fit all, the new % column, so you can say I want 80% of the Machining feed, on any MO you want.

 

Thanks for posting your comments.

Dave

Dave Frank

RE: If I can get only one Enhancement for R22, this is it.
(in response to Dave Frank)

Hi Friends,

I have talked with quite a few superusers in the past month, and all are hoping these ideas get implemented. The people are well aware of the workarounds....

Paramaters...

Storing Macros....

Processes, and templates.....

 

But still,  the ideas layed out here, are widely accepted, and a good soluting .... a final  solution to feedrate managment.

Simpley...there needs to be MORE FEEDS DEFINABLE... on the cutter technology page.

Thats my story and I'm sticking too it.

Chapetine