Enhancement request, ability to create matrixes, by multiplying matrixes

Enhancement request, ability to create matrixes, by multiplying matrixes

I needed to create copy translated motion, that was translated and rotated.
CATIA has all the good matrix definitions, other then multiple matrixes

Proposed solution:
-------------------
Add a "more tab", and allow an 2nd , or possible a third

The first might be an axis to axis, the 2nd a rotation or translation, and so on, perhaps a scale thrown in .

Fortunately, I know how to create matrixes, so I plugged in the 12 numbers myself

I am glad the I had that option, ..... someone at Dassault was thinking, and put MATRIX in the list.

Finally, not realy a high priority, as I can do this with the CATIA I have today, but it would make it easier to use for sure.


Best regards
Dave

Dave,

I think it is pretty good the way it is now. Like you said there are very few users who would use matrices.

I only use it when user needs to mirror the toolpaths without changing the cutting direction (climb/conventional)
on symmetrical part features.

Here is a simple example of Matrix transformation which I did last month for one of my clients.

Thank you for helping me make my point
You needed to translated and rotated motion

what if you needed translated and rotated, and scaled
What if the rotation was 35.83748 degrees, and so forth

I can do it, so can you and most of the PAC-MEN.
But not the avarage rookie programmer.
"Vector? what is Vector?"

My ER is for direct creation of matrixes.

Dave

Dave, I know what you mean. It was a standard matrix definition in APT to be able to define a matrix as the product of two matrixes.

If you were trying to import an old APT program, or even an NCL program where the programmer had created such a matrix and tracut the entire program by it, then that would make it a lot easier. Or...if you are some crazy math wiz, and are trying to cut some crazy shape using matrix math....I have a really cool APT program to make a spirograph that does something like this with like 10 lines....very cool...but don't see much of that in aerospace! Or...if you're trying to cut a helix on a 39.293571 degree angle in X and 23.34495 degrees in Y just by using a single point-to-point MO and a copy-transformation....but who would attempt that....lol...?

I have many times had to import old APT or NCL programs into Catia and found the TRACUT/MATRIX to be very useful...especially when an NCL or APT programmer has accidently programmed an entire part and only at the end decided to change where the origin is AND put the whole part on a SINE plate, and so- simply TRACUT the whole program by a matrix. Yes, this happens, and not rarely.

However, I think that with how rarely a matrix is built as the product of two matrixes, it would probably be a very hard sell to get this enhancement. I would consider just multiplying the two matrices on paper and just using the single matrix transformation that is already available. You know how to do it, Dave!

It is definitely a big time saver in order to create matrices for some complex transformations.

Any news in this enhancement for creating matrices by 2 or 3 transformations involved in it. Using Index/Copy operators, tree gets larger and larger.

Hi Samarinder,

What do you mean? Can you post a picture?

Dave

PS this is standard APT

mx1 = TRANSLATE 20 INCHES
mx2 = Rotate 22.45 deg
MX3 = MX/ MX2,MX1
MX4 = MX / MX1, MX2

And, MX3 is not the same as MX4... it is the order they are applied.


Dave

And doing it this was is cleaner because of associativity, a axis to axis matrix is in many cases, an unintelegent axis. system
Dave

Hi Dave,

Here is some info I am dealing with.

I made some programs 6 months ago. Now shop wants to translate the motion by .025" deep for some insert-cutter.

Original toolpath for shown part no problem.

Opposite hand program. Not quite opposite hand since outer mold line was different on both parts and part notes tell clearly that there is no opposite.
However I found that most of inner walls, pockets are mirror image of other configuration.

So I made 2 transformations since all 6 parts 24 programs were done with same x0 y0 z0 and same fixture base plate and same set of tools.

Transformation-1 mirror the toolpaths
Transformation-2 translate the toolpaths in correct location

I did both with TRACUT.

Now I dont want to manually change the each MO and just to drop the tool motion by .025" because of time constraints/deadlines in other project.

So I thought I do one more transformation on top of that.

But as we know Catia we cant nest the TRACUT commands.

Question: Can we nest the TRACUT in NCL?

However I can do the 3rd transformation with INDEX COPY operator but I didn't plan for that kind of change.
And we know that INDEX method will produce extra motions so I will have to keep them in separate programs.

I guess, I'll bite the bullet and do it with a script and update the motion. But I am worried about doing that since original motion is programmed in R19.


Thanks,
Samarinder

How about the post word TRANS?

TRANS syntax.

APT syntax used to specify a desired translation on the part coordinate system.
Effect of configuration file on TRANS output: None.
TRANS effect on configuration file: None.

APT syntax

TRANS / x, y, z
where: x, y, z = values are added to all following motions
APT example:
Example machine code

TRANS / .5, .5, 0 ===> No output
GOTO / 1, 2, 3 ===> G00 X1.5 Y2.5 Z3.

Posted By Roger Bombassei on 08 Jul 2011 06:42 PM
How about the post word TRANS?

TRANS syntax.

APT syntax used to specify a desired translation on the part coordinate system.
Effect of configuration file on TRANS output: None.
TRANS effect on configuration file: None.

APT syntax

TRANS / x, y, z
where: x, y, z = values are added to all following motions
APT example:
Example machine code

TRANS / .5, .5, 0 ===> No output
GOTO / 1, 2, 3 ===> G00 X1.5 Y2.5 Z3.

Thanks Roger,

I haven't use this word for 2 reasons.
1. I want to see the motion inside Catia first.
2. I have only used this in AZpost. Nowadays I am using Icam and I haven't built enough trust in Icam yet.

I would fix it in CATIA too but if I was under the gun TRANS is a quick and dirty fix that works.
And, I would be surprised if it worked any different in ICAM

ICAM uses Origin

origgiin / 1,0,0,0 0,1,0,0, 0,0,1,.025

translates .025 in Z

Thanks for the replies.

Dave,
Once again Icam complicates things using ORIGIN word to translate the coordinates just as they have overused the CUTCOM word. Following images are for ORIGIN and TRANS syntax from ANSI X3.37-1995


 

Whereas AZpost uses standard APT syntax TRANS.

I used TRANS for the entire program and I didn't use it for partial tool motion as in this case.

So I guess I have to try using it partially this time.

GOTO/....
GOTO/....
....
...
TRANS/0,0,-.025
 
GOTO/....
GOTO/....
....
...

TRANS/0,0,0
'Because I don't want to translate the following coordinates. Is there any other way to turn it OFF?. "TRANS/OFF"?  "TRANS/NOMORE"?
OR Will it simply countermand the previous TRANS statement?

GOTO/....
GOTO/....
....
...

Thanks,
Samarinder

I think TRANS/0,0,0 will stop the translations.
It is very easy to check to be sure.

I think I'll try TRANS/OFF
here is what I found in Icam docs

ps Another enhancement request for transformation similar to TRACUT

TRANS

Samarinder,

Sometimes I'll have a customer need a transformation on an entire program.

I just do it all in ProAPT.

MX1=MX/VEC1,VEC2
MX2=MX/....
MX3=MX/MX1,MX2
TRACUT/MX3
...
...
TRACUT/NOMORE

Quick, down and dirty...gets me paid.

Oh yeah...regarding nesting Tracuts.

I don't think I ever nest TRACUT's in NCL or APT. Prefer to nest the Matrices. Mucho better....just like in above example.

Sometimes in Catia I'll nest a COPY in a TRACUT.

To tell the truth, since you can't so easily create and nest Matrices in Catia...unlike APT which does all the math for you, I am guilty of using TRANS a lot and letting the post do it....so basically I'll have a TRANS statement after a Catia TRACUT. I do this all the time when I'm programming 90 degree heads and there's a mirrored part. Or when I'm programming externally controlled rotary tables on 5-axis machines.

Bryan,

We can't nest TRACUT in APT or Catia. But I am not sure if it can be done in NCL.

I used the TRANS in upper level than TRACUT so basically I used the TRANS to do the nesting for TRACUT.

Hi Samarinder,

TRACUT is not nestable
MATRIX are nestable.

Thanks Dave.

I Like Tracut and Matrix's but I want to do it all interactively in one TRACUT MO with ROTATION, GROWTH and TRANS... to do it all. Please clarify, I see a (Matrix) Transformation Type in TRACUT MO which I can manually modify (that's how I use it now), so why is it not nestable? By the way ICAM handles TRANS as anything else... I always use it in my ICAM POSTs.

Alex, you can do a rotation, scale, and trans all in one Matrix, in Catia, but you have to know how to create the 12 parameter matrix.

Since I'm not great at math, I usually just create a few matrixes in APT, nest them, compile it with PRINT/3,ALL, then look at the listing report to get the 12 parameter matrix, then put the numbers into Catia by selecting to create a TRACUT by MATRIX.

Basically, I'm using my APT compiler as a calculator. If I did this a lot, which I don't, I'd write up a utility in Excel or something like that.

Alex,

Just like Bryan mentioned that it takes great amount of effort doing it with pen/paper or a calculator. You must be darn good and fast in math if you can do it ,what I am asking, manually.

Anyway I would like to see this enhancement for multiplying matrices and another option for TRANS.

We had to learn Matrices in a couple of my APT classes. I did well. Most students didn't do well.
I wouldn't be able to do it off the top of my head now and multiple matrices are pretty difficult.

Longhand, or just MX3= MX2, MX1

The instructor at McDonnell Douglas made sure we understood how to do them long hand. Matrices got me my first NC programming job.
The instructors name was Don Lynch.

I just found out that Catia does calculate the matrix and I have used it successfully. Now all I want TRANS button as an enhancement in the "Transformation Management" toolbar . If not then I'll keep using the Matrix only.

I am thinking about writing a script to calculate the new matrix based upon on some input such as translations, rotations and then allow the user to insert the Transformation operation with the matrix in the desired location inside the manufacturing program.

Edit: But I still think that it would be a good enhancement in Catia.

Attached image shows some deactivated MOs with old style transformations and new transformations are done using Matrix.

TRANS is applied after all of the other translations and rotations. Isn't that what tracut last did? It would be nice to handle it in CATIA. Especially if you want to turn it on and off. But we decided to only fix what we have. and not add anything else.

Yeah that would be another good enhancement TRACUT/LAST.

Ultimately goal is to define/write matrices and then use it as one complex matrix for the transformation.

Back to square one. When we pick the option to use Matrix, it would be nice to have another check box somewhere to define that matrix other than just plugging some numbers as Dave asked it originally.

Example:
I made 2 transformations
1. Mirror
2. Translation

Then operator wanted to move some cutters by .xxx" in Z-axis after 5 months.

So another translation.

If this option is available, I simply open the TRACUT operation and change the Matrix by adding another translation in it. All is in one place.
And I did it this time but I had to calculate the Matrix separately.

Thanks,
Samarinder

Posted By BFELSHER on 12 Jul 2011 12:30 PM
Alex, you can do a rotation, scale, and trans all in one Matrix, in Catia, but you have to know how to create the 12 parameter matrix.

Since I'm not great at math, I usually just create a few matrixes in APT, nest them, compile it with PRINT/3,ALL, then look at the listing report to get the 12 parameter matrix, then put the numbers into Catia by selecting to create a TRACUT by MATRIX.

Basically, I'm using my APT compiler as a calculator. If I did this a lot, which I don't, I'd write up a utility in Excel or something like that.

Brian I agree...

I do it same way (few Matrixes values nested into one ), but I started programming after APT days and it took me some asking around till I figured what to do couple of years ago. I want 12 Parameter Matrix in the Interactive CATIA TRACUT Menu selection, so that I do bunch of things with few matrixes and Catia will Nest them for me interactively including Trans, Mirror, Rotate, Growth... etc all in one MATRIX... if we can do it manually I am sure it is easy to implement as interactive option. I have to do it manually on all big Gantry parts that need to be rotated, mirrored, Translated because of Stock thickness change than Affinity growth in specific direction for temperature compensation.

Alex- you have me thinkiing, now...

Why can't Catia just have a nested Matrix type as a TRACUT matrix option type? I'm basically doing that in APT.

It seems that in Catia, when applying a tracut and selecting matrix, one should be able to specify as many matrices as one wants- TRANSL,ROTATE, INVERS, MIRROR are the basic types available in APT, and then Catia can nest them all together...something like that. In essence, you get what Samarinder is calling a nested Tracut, but it's actually a single TRACUT with a nested Matrix.

If you wanted to get really crazy, you could do something like this in APT....silly as it is. This would be a heck of a lot of math to try to do without an APT compiler.

MX1=MATRIX/XYROT,30
MX2=MATRIX/TRANSL,1,2,3
MX3=MATRIX/MX1,MX2
MX4=MATRIX/SCALE,.5
MX5=MATRIX/MX3,MX4
MX6=MATRIX/INVERS,MX5
TRACUT/MX6
...
...
TRACUT/NOMORE

Would it not be good if TRANS was processed in CATIA rather then the post, so REPLAY and VIDEO sees the effect?

FYI

Since you guys are interested, the 2nd MX is applied first

And … mx3 and mx4 are substantially different.... Think about it

ROT30=MATRIX/XYROT,30
TRANS1=MATRIX/TRANSL,20,0,0

MX3=MATRIX/ROT30, TRANS1
MX4=MATRIX/ TRANS1, ROT30

 

Dave

 

my favorite was the PT/VE,VE

TRACUT / (MX/INVERS,(MX/MXPT1, MXVEX,MXVEY)

TRACUT /(MX / (MX/XYROT,20), (MX/INVERS,(MX/MXPT1, MXVEX,MXVEY))

TRACUT /( MX / (MX / SCALE, .998124, ), (MX / (MX/XYROT,20), (MX/INVERS,(MX/MXPT1, MXVEX,MXVEY))))


10 CENTS if you can find the syntax error.

Yes it would be nice. But what if we are allowed to define the TRANS inside the Matrix then it would take care of that as well. I'll put some suggestions for the dialog box here later this weekend if I get to them.

Since Catia has the functionality to calculate the Matrix, all we have to do is exploit it more, so user can have more options to define the Matrix based upon any combination of all possible transformations.

Dave,

I dont know NCL syntax but I found that you are missing right parenthesis in first two TRACUT statements. And it is very easy to find inside "Notepad ++" which is my favorite free Text-editor.

The Equation Coefficients (Canonical Form)

SMAT1 = MATRIX/ a1, b1, c1, d1, a2, b2, c2, d2, a3, b3, c3, d3

where a1, b1, etc. are the coefficients of the equations:

a1x + b1y + c1z - d1 = 0

a2x + b2y + c2z - d2 = 0

a3x + b3y + c3z - d3 = 0

Posted By Roger Bombassei on 13 Jul 2011 02:24 PM
The Equation Coefficients (Canonical Form)

SMAT1 = MATRIX/ a1, b1, c1, d1, a2, b2, c2, d2, a3, b3, c3, d3

where a1, b1, etc. are the coefficients of the equations:

a1x + b1y + c1z - d1 = 0

a2x + b2y + c2z - d2 = 0

a3x + b3y + c3z - d3 = 0

Catia implemented exactly this form inside TRACUT operator for the matrix.

That came straight from the IBM APT 360 manual http://www.dtpm.unipa.it/emc/it/apt_doc/manual/index.html

You know, I really like this enhancement to nest matrixes, the more I think about it.

Imagine cutting a complex surface with a 2" Diameter x .375 width T-slotter with 2x's .125 Radii, and you need to drive by the top and bottom of the tool.

You could drive a .250 ball endmill coming from the side, and use a Tracut with the correct matrix so that your GOTO point/vector in the NC code would be correct. I've seen APT guys do this type of stuff, either using the TRACUT with a matrix, or using REFSYS.

By the way, when someone mentioned the idea that they needed to shift/translate a section of a program that was already inside of a TRACUT/MIRROR, I was thinking- well, you can't nest another tracut, but you COULD just put in a new machining axis system that is shifted opposite the direction you need the program to shift, and DON'T check the Origin check box, so that the ORIGIN statement isn't output.

You wouldn't see the correct motion on screen in Catia, but your posted code would be correct. Down, dirty, and ugly- but in a pinch, it would work.

If I were to do something like this, I would dump out and import back in the aptsource, and then deactivate the toolpaths and new axis system used to create the correct motion.

Has there been any recent developments on this? I am really needing to combine a mirroring and scaling tracut? I try to calculate the equivalent 12 parameter matrix manually but i never comes out right in my simulations. I cant figure out the best procedure.

If I record the matrix for scaling and then the matrix for mirroring i would think i could multiply them together and get what i need to put back into the catia tracut type matrix.

 

Regrettably.......nyet

 

If you tell me what you need I'll help you with the 12 parameter matrix.

 

Scale and mirror is easier than matrices involving rotation

---

Dave Frank  *    Aerospace Dynamics International, Valencia, Ca

5-Axis CNC Programmer

COE Product Co-Chairman, Digital Numerical Control

 

I think i figured it out, just needed to freshen up my math skills. Found this lecture slide that helped me. http://groups.csail.mit.edu/graphics/classes/6.837/F03/lectures/04_transformations.ppt

Is there any better documentation on the tracut/matrix command? That link above about APT360 is broken.

Siemens 840D has spoiled me greatly over the years, as it is capable of doing this directly in G-code. Stacking frames with CTRANS, CROT, CSCALE, and CMIRROR via insert statements keeps my CATIA screen motion intact and makes my code correct. I know it's not proper form, but it gets the job done.

Not everyone uses Siemens, so it won't apply for all, but if there's questions on how to do it, let me know.

I wish Catia had the TRACUT/LAST Capability of APT 370. It made managing TRACUT so easy.

Now we will find out who the true old dogs are with this post.

Randy Hitzeman

Hi Colton,

Here are some examples of matrix and the 12 param form. 

Note: when multiplying matrix, the 2nd one is applied first ,,,hence

ROTTRN = MX / MXTRAN, MXROT         rotated, then translated
TRNROT = MX / MXROT, MXTRAN         translated, then rotated. 

I applied a scale to both 

 

 

PARTNO MATRIX
CA / ON
$$
MXTRAN = MX / TRANSL, 10,0,0
MXROT = MX / XYROT, 30
ROTTRN = MX / MXTRAN, MXROT
TRNROT = MX / MXROT, MXTRAN
MXSC = MX / SCALE, .997
$$
ROTRNS = MX / MXSC, ROTTRN
TRNRTS = MX / MXSC, TRNROT
$$
MXTRAN matrix
x(2): 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000 10.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

MXROT matrix
x(2): 0.8660254 -0.5000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.5000000 0.8660254 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

ROTTRN matrix
x(2): 0.8660254 -0.5000000 0.0000000 10.0000000
y(2): 0.5000000 0.8660254 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

TRNROT matrix
x(2): 0.8660254 -0.5000000 0.0000000 8.6602540
y(2): 0.5000000 0.8660254 0.0000000 5.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

MXSC matrix
x(2): 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000

ROTRNS matrix
x(2): 0.8634273 -0.4985000 0.0000000 9.9700000
y(2): 0.4985000 0.8634273 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000

TRNRTS matrix
x(2): 0.8634273 -0.4985000 0.0000000 8.6342733
y(2): 0.4985000 0.8634273 0.0000000 4.9850000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000

 

---

Dave Frank  *    Aerospace Dynamics International, Valencia, Ca

5-Axis CNC Programmer

COE Product Co-Chairman, Digital Numerical Control

 

MIRX = MX / MIRROR, (PL/1,0,0,0)
MIRY = MX / MIRROR, (PL/0,1,0,0)
MIRZ = MX / MIRROR, (PL/0,0,1,0)
MIRXSC = MX / MIRX, MXSC
MIRYSC = MX / MIRY, MXSC
MIRZSC = MX / MIRZ, MXSC

MIRX matrix
x(2): -1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

MIRY matrix
x(2): 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 -1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000

MIRZ matrix
x(2): 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 -1.0000000 0.0000000

MIRXSC matrix
x(2): -0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000

MIRYSC matrix
x(2): 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 -0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000

MIRZSC matrix
x(2): 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000000
y(2): 0.0000000 0.9970000 0.0000000 0.0000000
z(2): 0.0000000 0.0000000 -0.9970000 0.0000000

---

Dave Frank  *    Aerospace Dynamics International, Valencia, Ca

5-Axis CNC Programmer

COE Product Co-Chairman, Digital Numerical Control